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Join Date: Jun 2012
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# 11
06-16-2013, 09:15 PM
So, in the end, what Section 31 did won the war for the Alpha Quadrant.

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Captain
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,107
# 12
06-16-2013, 09:25 PM
No, the disease did not affect her thinking. They were losing the war ever since DS9 fell to the Alliance. The Feds and Klingons had the numbers, technology and resources. The romulans were brought into the alliance because they couldnt take the dominion and romulans.

What section 31 did, in effect was save tens of thousands of lives on the alliance side. Lives that would had been lost when they would had taken Cardassia. The Alliance knew they would be victorious. They had a 2 or 3 to one number over the Dominion at Cardassia Prime, estimating to lose at least 40 percent of their numbers. They didn't have the time for creative approaches, it had to be head on if they were to save cardassia prime.
Captain
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 894
# 13
06-17-2013, 05:32 AM
I'd say the Dominion War was WW2 in space, with the battle of Cardassia being the star trek equivalent of the battle of Okinawa, the attacking allies in both cases taking heavy losses.



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Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
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# 14
06-17-2013, 05:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by oracion666 View Post
So, in the end, what Section 31 did won the war for the Alpha Quadrant.
I dont think so. The federation alliance had cardassia surrounded. they would have won from that point, but the disease gave them a bargaining chip which stopped a lot of bloodshed and allowed a peace to be signed rather than a straight out military victory.

now it can be argued that the resulting fight would have weakened the alliance to the point where they would not be strong enough to withstand any more reinforcement coming through the wormhole, but they did not want to send any at all because the last lot where eliminated by the prophets (not knowing the prophets probably would not care a second time as they only wanted to save sisko's life).

i imagine over time the dominion would have tried to send ships through again, and this time the prophets would not have stopped them and we would have had resulted in a second war. so sections 31's actions ultimately saved lives and stopped any future hostilities, but not necessarily the first war itself.

House of Cards - Lvl 46 Fed mission

Last edited by captainrevo1; 06-17-2013 at 05:46 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 976
# 15
06-17-2013, 05:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by deaftravis05 View Post
I've always wondered why the Alliance were going to land troops. If the planet was going to be void of cardassians by the time the Alliance wiped out the defences, what was the point of landing? I'd just reduce the planet to rubble from space.
Before the battle of Cardassia Prime, the Alliance didn't know the Dominion was going to start wiping out the Cardassians. That didn't happen until after the Cardassian military switched sides in the middle of the battle (something else the Alliance wasn't counting on).
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,593
# 16
06-17-2013, 05:55 AM
Had it not been for the disqusting actions of the war criminals of the obsidian order and section 31 there would not have been a war in the first place

however without the virus the eventual defeat of the dominion was a certainty
they were an unsustainable regime and would have collapsed internally as soon as the first Jem hadar were detoxed

Witness the Jafar in stargate they actively hunted down and slaughtered their false gods

as to the prophets they also contributed to prolonging the war
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,697
# 17
06-17-2013, 06:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
Had it not been for the disqusting actions of the war criminals of the obsidian order and section 31 there would not have been a war in the first place
Your logic is flawed: War with the Dominion was inevitable after the Federation ignored the Dominion warning to stay out of the Gamma quadrant, and sent the Odyssey and the Defiant into their territory... The Federation were given the conditions for avoiding hostilities, they chose to ignore them. That is what caused the war, not the actions of the Obsidian Order or Section 31.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
however without the virus the eventual defeat of the dominion was a certainty
they were an unsustainable regime and would have collapsed internally as soon as the first Jem hadar were detoxed

Witness the Jafar in stargate they actively hunted down and slaughtered their false gods

as to the prophets they also contributed to prolonging the war
Your logic is again flawed: The vast majority of Jem'hadar cannot be detoxed from the White as it provides a key genetic enzyme. Without it, they die. Period. While there are a few who are able to live without the White, they are an extreme minority, and not sufficient numbers to effect revolution. Equally, their obedience to the Founders is genetically encoded, rather than educationally indoctrinated, as in the example of the Jafar: They are mentally incapable of rebellion.

While I believe that with a closure of the Bajoran wormhole, the Dominion presence in the Alpha quadrant could eventually be erradicated, it would be at a heavy cost to the Federation, and would not eradicate the existence of the Dominion from the Gamma quadrant, and it would only take development of transwarp or slipstream drives for the Founders to send more forces to the Alpha quadrant to wipe out the Federation for the insult of destroying the previous forces. By the time the Dominion has transwarp capability, the Federation will have settled back into the mindset which allowed Project Defiant to be mothballed due to no 'clear and present danger' and they would be all but wiped out by incoming Dominion forces.

The only logical way of preventing unnecessary deaths, would be to submit to Dominion rule, given the action of refusing the original Dominion warning cannot be undone...

Last edited by marcusdkane; 06-17-2013 at 06:26 AM. Reason: Spelling
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# 18
06-17-2013, 10:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by oracion666 View Post
So, in the end, what Section 31 did won the war for the Alpha Quadrant.
In part. I think of it as a factor of three.

1.Section 31, did disease the founders.

2.The wormhole aliens, put a large Dominion assault fleet in " Time out"

3.Captain Sisko,and Garak, tricked the Romulans into entering the war on the side of the Alpha quadrant.
The Photobomb of Khan.
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,593
# 19
06-18-2013, 02:51 AM
Quote:
Your logic is flawed: War with the Dominion was inevitable after the Federation ignored the Dominion warning to stay out of the Gamma quadrant, and sent the Odyssey and the Defiant into their territory...
under orders from section 31 agents almost certainly

Quote:
The Federation were given the conditions for avoiding hostilities, they chose to ignore them. That is what caused the war, not the actions of the Obsidian Order or Section 31.
section 31 made WAR the choice not merely a stand off



Quote:
Your logic is again flawed: The vast majority of Jem'hadar cannot be detoxed from the White as it provides a key genetic enzyme.
actually they CAN

better to die free than live as a drug addicted slave

Quote:
Without it, they die. Period. While there are a few who are able to live without the White, they are an extreme minority, and not sufficient numbers to effect revolution
A cloned species they could be reproduced in the millions without the dependance

Quote:
. Equally, their obedience to the Founders is genetically encoded, rather than educationally indoctrinated, as in the example of the Jafar: They are mentally incapable of rebellion.

Not exactly true
it was a product of conditioning
and ANY conditioning can be broken

Quote:
While I believe that with a closure of the Bajoran wormhole, the Dominion presence in the Alpha quadrant could eventually be erradicated, it would be at a heavy cost to the Federation, and would not eradicate the existence of the Dominion from the Gamma quadrant, and it would only take development of transwarp or slipstream drives for the Founders to send more forces to the Alpha quadrant to wipe out the Federation for the insult of destroying the previous forces
.

but dominion tech is inferior and without the jem hadar they have no army

Quote:
By the time the Dominion has transwarp capability, the Federation will have settled back into the mindset which allowed Project Defiant to be mothballed due to no 'clear and present danger' and they would be all but wiped out by incoming Dominion forces.
the defiant was a total waste of resources
it would have been more practical to station smacs at ds9


Quote:
The only logical way of preventing unnecessary deaths, would be to submit to Dominion rule, given the action of refusing the original Dominion warning cannot be undone...
or talk to them
the founders are almost sentient even by human standards
they could be convinced to live in peace
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,908
# 20
06-18-2013, 03:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
actually they CAN

better to die free than live as a drug addicted slave
No they cant, it's mentioned in the show. Platitudes are not evidence. And Section 31 is awesome.

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