Captain
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 889
# 21
06-18-2013, 02:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by deaftravis05 View Post
I've always wondered why the Alliance were going to land troops. If the planet was going to be void of cardassians by the time the Alliance wiped out the defences, what was the point of landing? I'd just reduce the planet to rubble from space.
Because the softy feds don't kill innocents I think
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,579
# 22
06-18-2013, 05:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
under orders from section 31 agents almost certainly
Pure conjecture... Equally, one could conjecture that Admiral Leyton was at Command and responsible for such pig-headed arrogance on the part of the Federation...

Regardless of such conjecture, the Federation was told to stay out of the Gamma quadrant, and for whatever reason, they chose to do otherwise, and that is what caused the war.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
actually they CAN
No, they can't... They don't take the White, they don't go cold turkey, they die.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
better to die free than live as a drug addicted slave
As above, platitudes are irrelevant. Not only irrelevant, but in this instance, inaccurately applied: The suggestion you are making is like suggesting a diabetic stops taking insulin.

And if they die, they cannot effect revolution...


Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
A cloned species they could be reproduced in the millions without the dependance
Yes they could, but by whom? Who would re-write the genetic template?


Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
Not exactly true
Entirely true...The Vorta and the Jem'hadar were genetically engineered to obey the Founders. That is a hard canon fact, so not open to interperetive debate...


Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
without the jem hadar they have no army
They have the technology to create a new army. A re-engineering of the Tosk, perhaps...


Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
the defiant was a total waste of resources
I disagree. Had Starfleet had the foresight to continue the project, rather than mothballing it when they thought the Borg threat was dealt with, lives would have been saved.



Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
it would have been more practical to station smacs at ds9
A platoon of troops on a near-stationary platform which enemies can use the cunning tactic of, wait for it -- move away from ( ) is an uneffective deployment and allocation of resources. A fleet of warships on the other hand...


Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
or talk to them
the founders are almost sentient even by human standards
they could be convinced to live in peace
Yes, by the Federation signing a non-aggression pact or accepting Dominion rule. Given the Federation's initial reaction to Dominion instruction to stay out of the Gamma quadrant, that would clearly not happen, making war unavoidable. As before, had the Federation heeded the initial warning, the war would not have happened. The later actions of Section 31 were incidental to the events that unfolded.

Last edited by marcusdkane; 06-18-2013 at 06:01 AM.
Ensign
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 23
# 23
06-18-2013, 06:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcusdkane View Post
Regardless of such conjecture, the Federation was told to stay out of the Gamma quadrant, and for whatever reason, they chose to do otherwise, and that is what caused the war.
Yeah...no. First, there's no indication that the space immediately around the wormhole was claimed by the Dominion up until they suddenly decided it was. They didn't hear anything but rumours about a 'Dominion' for the first few years that they were poking around the GQ.

Second, I'm pretty sure it's made fairly clear that the Colony on New Bajor was massacred before the Dominion delivered their ultimatum. No chance to evacuate, not even a warning to the Feds, just "Oh, by the way we've murdered every one of your civilians we could get our hands on over here, now stay out."

I'm pretty sure that would be considered a casus belli by pretty much...any civilization, ever.

Quote:
I disagree. Had Starfleet had the foresight to continue the project, rather than mothballing it when they thought the Borg threat was dealt with, lives would have been saved.
No question there. Starfleet has a bad habit of sticking their fingers in their ears and going, "Nope! not a military!!" every time there's not an immediate threat to deal with. TBH, of all the less than stellar episodes of TNG, 'Peak Performance' was probably my least favorite, just because of Picard and Rikers incessant whining about "We're not a military organization!", "Tactical skills aren't really that important!"


Quote:
A platoon of troops on a near-stationary platform which enemies can use the cunning tactic of, wait for it -- move away from ( ) is an uneffective deployment and allocation of resources. A fleet of warships on the other hand...
DS9 is the key to the wormhole. Absolutely there should have been like, spaceborn weapon platforms built, and particularly after direct contact with the Dominion some kind of Fleet stationed there. Doesn't mean an actual dedicated ground combat force on the station itself wouldn't have been a good idea.


Quote:
Yes, by the Federation signing a non-aggression pact or accepting Dominion rule. Given the Federation's initial reaction to Dominion instruction to stay out of the Gamma quadrant, that would clearly not happen, making war unavoidable. As before, had the Federation heeded the initial warning, the war would not have happened. The later actions of Section 31 were incidental to the events that unfolded.
Yeah, if the Federation had just accepted the Dominions unsupported claim to an entire quadrant of the galaxy, the slaughter of potentially several hundred civilians, and the kidnap and permanent loss of several Starfleet Officers, maybe the totally not-warlike-at-all Dominion would have been content to just ignore the multiple advanced spacefaring nations of hated solids with a direct passage to their backyard. Seems legit.
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 5,349
# 24
06-18-2013, 07:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by oracion666 View Post
So, in the end, what Section 31 did won the war for the Alpha Quadrant.
lol Whatever did make you draw that conclusion?? That is wrong on so many levels.

The war was won due to many Starfleet officers, Klingon and Romulan warriors sacrificing their lives to ensure a victory for the alliance. And the help of the Prophets.

What Section 31 tried to do is a genocide, they tried to exterminate the Fouders' species seing them as the main reason for the Dominion starting the war in the first place. (Which is actually correct, the Founders despised all 'solid' life forms and wanted them either subjucated or exterminated and were the main reason for the Dominion's agressive campaign against the Federation)
Now, the virus enabled a negotiation ace in the sleeve for the Federation that ensured prevention on any further unnecessary loss of lives. Did Section 31 plan on this? Pfffftt....some people here are giving them way too much credit. The Feds. would never had that ace in the sleeve if it werent for Dr.Julian Bashir that tricked Sloan and risked his life together with O'Brien venturing in Sloan's brain to get the antidote.
If Section 31 had their way, Odo would be dead as well and the Feds. wouldn't have that negotiation ace to convince the female Founder to stand down.
Show your support for the Revamped Galaxy Class Exploration Cruiser here!

Last edited by shpoks; 06-18-2013 at 10:15 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,579
# 25
06-18-2013, 08:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jovianus View Post
Yeah...no. First, there's no indication that the space immediately around the wormhole was claimed by the Dominion up until they suddenly decided it was. They didn't hear anything but rumours about a 'Dominion' for the first few years that they were poking around the GQ.
Doesn't matter... Once the Dominion told Starfleet to stay out, that's what they should have done, not gone back for Sisko, or gone looking for the Founders in a warship...


Quote:
Originally Posted by jovianus View Post
Second, I'm pretty sure it's made fairly clear that the Colony on New Bajor was massacred before the Dominion delivered their ultimatum. No chance to evacuate, not even a warning to the Feds, just "Oh, by the way we've murdered every one of your civilians we could get our hands on over here, now stay out."

I'm pretty sure that would be considered a casus belli by pretty much...any civilization, ever.
New Bajor was not a Federation colony. In Emissary, Picard made it clear that Sisko was not to violate the Prime Directive in his interactions with the Bajora... It was not Starfleet's place to go and avenge New Bajor, that was a task solely for the Bajoran militia.



Quote:
Originally Posted by jovianus View Post
No question there. Starfleet has a bad habit of sticking their fingers in their ears and going, "Nope! not a military!!" every time there's not an immediate threat to deal with. TBH, of all the less than stellar episodes of TNG, 'Peak Performance' was probably my least favorite, just because of Picard and Rikers incessant whining about "We're not a military organization!", "Tactical skills aren't really that important!"
Indeed it does... A fleet of Defiant-class ships would certainly have helped, rather than hauling all those old ships out of mothballs...


Quote:
Originally Posted by jovianus View Post
DS9 is the key to the wormhole. Absolutely there should have been like, spaceborn weapon platforms built, and particularly after direct contact with the Dominion some kind of Fleet stationed there. Doesn't mean an actual dedicated ground combat force on the station itself wouldn't have been a good idea.
I agree, it wouldn't be a bad idea, but certainly not the most efficient use of fleet resources as opposed to assigning a fleet of Defiant-class ships as a permanent escort.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jovianus View Post
Yeah, if the Federation had just accepted the Dominions unsupported claim to an entire quadrant of the galaxy, the slaughter of potentially several hundred civilians, and the kidnap and permanent loss of several Starfleet Officers, maybe the totally not-warlike-at-all Dominion would have been content to just ignore the multiple advanced spacefaring nations of hated solids with a direct passage to their backyard. Seems legit.
Oh no, I think the Federation would have wound up either signing a non-aggression pact or being made to become a part of the Dominion, I think that was inevitable, but the actual war could have been averted if Starfleet had heeded the initial warning to stay out...
Captain
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,844
# 26
06-22-2013, 06:04 AM
Starfleet knew a war was coming because of the slaughter of the colony. They tried to get peace and when Odo said it wasn't coming, that's when they prepared for war. I suspect they never kept a large fleet at DS9 so not to provoke the Dominion while they prepared for war.
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