Captain
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 2,162
# 41
06-18-2013, 12:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bootyboots View Post
No need to give service to the mega fleets, most are adapting in other ways, for example, they stop actively recruiting, they create sister/branch specialized/alt fleets, or they ignore the issue completely.

A fleet that has a hard time generating fleet credits is making the problem themselves. No need to change the system just for them. Besides, that problem is more easily addressed by adding 4th slot embassy and dilithium mine projects that mimic the 5th slot starbase ones

Keep in mind the fleet system is supposed to be based on a fleet of 25 average sto players.
Didn't fleets operate just fine when starbases were just a dream?
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,465
# 42
06-18-2013, 03:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by newromulan1 View Post
Is this 17% figure just taking into account the Dilithium you would save? Does it take into account all the Fleet marks, commodities, doffs etc - that people will save having the mininig holding?
You're only getting a discount on dilithium and fleet marks. There is no discount on commodities or doffs. By building the mine, you end up having to spend even more of those.

Secondly, what the hell else would the 17% figure take into account? You expend roughly 4.5 million dilithium to build the mine. To recoup that investment from a fleet holding (full starbase + embassy) that costs over 29 million dilithium the discount needs to be 17% or more.

It's fairly simple math.

Quote:
Originally Posted by newromulan1 View Post
I would call that a significant improvement.
Being slightly worse off than you were is now a significant improvement? Fleets that don't build this are just as screwed as they are if they do build this. That's not a significant improvement in the least. That's a ponzi scheme.

Last edited by stirling191; 06-18-2013 at 03:41 AM.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 421
# 43
06-18-2013, 03:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stirling191 View Post
You're only getting a discount on dilithium and fleet marks. There is no discount on commodities or doffs. By building the mine, you end up having to spend even more of those.

Secondly, what the hell else would the 17% figure take into account? You expend roughly 4.5 million dilithium to build the mine. To recoup that investment from a fleet holding (full starbase + embassy) that costs over 29 million dilithium the discount needs to be 17% or more.

It's fairly simple math.



Being slightly worse off than you were is now a significant improvement? Fleets that don't build this are just as screwed as they are if they do build this.
there is a discount on all fleet project inputs including duty officers and doffs

Quote:
Originally Posted by gorngonzolla View Post
The good news is that the Item/Commodity discounts also apply to Duty Officers. The other good news is that the patch notes were updated to reflect how the changes to Duty Officer fleet project inputs actually work.

Regards,
Phil "Gorngonzolla" Zeleski
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/sh...1#post10772661
House of Sigma (channel KDFdefera for PvE requiring only KDF teams) List of KDF issues [my in-game handle @bootymcboots] (channel KDF Empire for KDF orientated discussion - still in development/growing)
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,465
# 44
06-18-2013, 04:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bootyboots View Post
there is a discount on all fleet project inputs including duty officers and doffs


http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/sh...1#post10772661
I completely missed that statement, thank you (seriously). I'll run some numbers when I get a moment, but I suspect the outcome for Doffs and commodities is going to be identical to the outcome for dilith and fms - IE: you lose more than you gain.

Additionally, that doesn't change the fact that the mine doesn't break even, nor is it even remotely the "significant improvement" Stahl's been screaming about for months.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 421
# 45
06-18-2013, 04:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stirling191 View Post
I completely missed that statement, thank you (seriously). I'll run some numbers when I get a moment, but I suspect the outcome for Doffs and commodities is going to be identical to the outcome for dilith and fms - IE: you lose more than you gain.

Additionally, that doesn't change the fact that the mine doesn't break even, nor is it even remotely the "significant improvement" Stahl's been screaming about for months.
I would love to see those numbers too (seriously)

keep in mind also the mining duty officer assignments, the benefits for emerging fleets, and the plans for more fleet holdings in the future (that last part means fleets are going to be seriously consolidated)
House of Sigma (channel KDFdefera for PvE requiring only KDF teams) List of KDF issues [my in-game handle @bootymcboots] (channel KDF Empire for KDF orientated discussion - still in development/growing)
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,465
# 46
06-18-2013, 05:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bootyboots View Post
I would love to see those numbers too (seriously)
Like I said, when I have some solid free time

Quote:
Originally Posted by bootyboots View Post
keep in mind also the mining duty officer assignments, the benefits for emerging fleets, and the plans for more fleet holdings in the future (that last part means fleets are going to be seriously consolidated)

Here's my biggest problem with all of this booty: the mine was repeatedly described as the means by which the resource burden on fleets would be significantly reduced in the short term. That doesn't mean "well, when we've added in five more fleet holdings over the next five years you'll have paid slightly less than you would have without this addition". It means "here's a mechanic we're adding to significantly reduce the amount of input you need right now, to such a degree that you're seeing benefits from day one".

The current implementation of the mine is the former, not the latter. And frankly, given the goodwill that cryptic have earned with LoR's content (I'm not getting into the stability issues argument, those are a given for MMOs), it's entirely idiotic to squander all of it by making their first post-LoR action a giant, and blatant, reneg.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,510
# 47
06-18-2013, 05:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by newromulan1 View Post
Is this 17% figure just taking into account the Dilithium you would save? Does it take into account all the Fleet marks, commodities, doffs etc - that people will save having the mininig holding?

Even if true that means that this new holding is almost "free" - with all it's extra's - if it were done long before the end of starbase construction vs not doing it at all.

I would call that a significant improvement.
The 17% number is based on the same figures that the old Starbase+3 embassies figure was. It assumes a new fleet maxes out the dilithium mine, counting discounts on the mine itself, and then maxes the starbase and embassy on full discount, and doesn't do any provisioning on any of the three holdings during or after the grind. You'll make up the last 2% pretty quick with provisioning.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 421
# 48
06-18-2013, 05:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stirling191 View Post
Here's my biggest problem with all of this booty: the mine was repeatedly described as the means by which the resource burden on fleets would be significantly reduced in the short term. [...] It means "here's a mechanic we're adding to significantly reduce the amount of input you need right now, to such a degree that you're seeing benefits from day one".
I administer a mid-sized fleet (~107 toons online in last 2 days, 274 in last 30, ~2/3 are SB contributors)

Honestly the Dmine isn't really going help us or hurt us. We are well balanced for or fleet size and starbase needs, the additional holding won't impact much either way, the discounts mean less fleet credits and the additional costs are minor.

What I'm really looking forward to is the doff imbalance fix, that will greatly help our fleet and every other non-maxed fleet of any size.

Having talked to other fleet leaders that carefully manage their holdings (we already have spread sheets for the diltihium mine), it my personal opinion that fleet holdings are optimized for a mid-sized fleet with ~25 dedicated contributors.

Personally I have a hard time thinking of a way Cryptic could help small fleets without it being exploited. The mailbox nerf last month effectively stopped all the doff love myself and others were giving to smaller fleets and I will likely consolidate those toons.

The best I can come up with is an alliance system where members can donate to allied fleets, but that solution isn't simple to make and can have its own issues. Its a tough pickle.
House of Sigma (channel KDFdefera for PvE requiring only KDF teams) List of KDF issues [my in-game handle @bootymcboots] (channel KDF Empire for KDF orientated discussion - still in development/growing)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 140
# 49
06-18-2013, 06:07 AM
So we have to spend triple the DIL (Due to the 3 Tiers of the DIL mine) to save on DIL, to build a DIL mine? To get a 15% savings after the fact, after we spend triple the DIL we wanted to save?

Yes that makes logical sense.

Our main fleet contributors (including me) contribute A LOT. Of DIL. Our main leaders have many ALt's for DIL farming. The amount they spend is inconceivable to get the Starbase to it's Tier's. Plus the 20H timers. It's taking forever for us to get to Tier IV, and that is with constantly getting projects done in less then an hour they are put up.

I don't know Cryptic if you are really convincing me you have any idea what you are doing at this point. Unless it's for the pure fact of making max profit on people converting Zen to DIL (by spending real money) to get said DIL to even keep up wit the un-imaginable costs for a Starbase.

I have heard it can take a Year to get a max starbase? That's a little ridiculous.

IN realism every person in every fleet needs at least 4 alts not only to keep up with Starbase building, but also their own characters. Not to even mention the fact of having a life outside of STO.

Last edited by nafeasonto1; 06-18-2013 at 06:13 AM.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 243
# 50
06-18-2013, 06:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by reximuz View Post
Since you are decreasing the inputs by 4/9/15% why don't you increase the Fleet Credit rewards by 4/9/15% to help counter the reduced credits that will be available for larger fleets to fight over.
See, the input discounts exacerbate a problem larger fleets already have, BUT, I think this is a good thing in that one change could fix BOTH large and small fleet problems: fleet alliances.

Allow fleet members to put resources into the missions of ANY allied fleet. Larger fleets get an outlet for resources and a rich new source for fleet credits; smaller fleets get an influx of resources they so desperately need. Thoughts?
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:24 AM.