Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 650
# 11
06-22-2013, 08:03 AM
The problem is this is the most complicated MMO to make, this is 4 games with two very different factions that each have a diversity of characters, gear, tactics, and ships to balance, while adhering to a very long and established tradition with an active near adversarial partner (CBS) in making new content. There are many factors that make this uniquely difficult to pull off: number of games wrapped up in sto, meddling in dev's work, limited usefulness of sci and eng to win, and grind focused game play.

The 4 games are ground pve, ground pvp, space pve, and space pve. I consider them different because they are entirely different from each other. What works in pvp doesn't in pve of the same type to similiar effectiveness. Because I like pvp and pve i am limited to specific pvp builds in order to be competitive. The lack of available builds to be effective in all facets of sto impact enjoyment the game. This is not a dev issue, this is a matter that programming AIs are just not up to snuff with people therefore balance in pve and pvp is absolutely impossible. This is why i feel that separate/duplicate skill trees and ship layouts should be set aside for pvp and pve. The skill tree simplification too the sophistication out of build making, warp cores are adding that back, and more slots on a ship (not just more console slots) can help with personalization of a ship.

Further the devs are tied to the star trek universe and probably cant develop as they wish because CBS ties their hands and there are limits put on what they can do because this is Star Trek and not a new fresh idea.

Third this is a very linear game near solely dps focused. The joy in the trek shows was that any shirt color could save the day. Right now two shirt colors are regulated to support. Now this is not a show, this is a game, but the feel of trek isn't here. Just the appearance. This is not a bash on escorts/tac, they function properly and are not OP. The problem is there is no way to win without killing things. Disables should knock things out FTW there should be other measures of losing a ship than hull strength, perhaps computer core corruption or power system capture i don't know, but something. This is Star Trek, the focus is exploration and combat didn't always result in smoldering hulks adrift. Cap and Hold is a good mission, more situational PvP could be added, such as escort freighter missions, protection, or challenged search and rescue. Still that leaves problems for PvE.

Grinds are the point of pve for the most part. Instead of working on something new and novel to accomplish there is just another reputation or holding that requires the same old missions to be run daily. The starbase is a GREAT idea, but didnt implement well. Developments should have been much much cheaper for all fleets, to give small fleets a chance, then have provisions cost an arm, a leg, and part of a pointy ear. This way all fleets get to advance in the system, and the big fleets had to put in extra if they wanted the benefits for the starbase. The way they implemented the starbase is contributing greatly to the grind and taking away from Foundry play where more can find enjoyment in the variety.

The one thing devs could do is provide us with a 'users' manual for the skills, gear, traits, and weapons together, I have routinely suggested a 'holosuite' program at Quarks where we pay GPL to play scenarios of Star Trek lore (such as the TOS movies, etc). This could also be a way to test new builds and ships in limited scenarios (with no reward). This would allow us to experiment without respecing or buying expensive consoles off the exchange to find them lack luster.

Right now I play because of friends and I really enjoy some aspects of the game, unfortunately to be competitive in pvp i have to do a bunch of pve grind, and it seems that it will be harder in the future to balance my ship and skill build to meet both efficiently. (time yourself in episodes solo for a tac esc and a eng cruiser) Token specialty optionals are thrown in on occasion, but really missions need to be specific to the ship type. For my engineer I started flying an escort just to get through the mid level missions, because to make them harder it was necessary to just add more ships but not drastically increase enemy dps that makes my escorts die.

Maybe a group of foundry missions can be clustered and a significant reward added to them to include a true choice of marks if the group is completed. The foundry is great, but underutilized and under valued from a reputation system standpoint. Devs can lean on community material that is more creative, doesn't adhere to the same limitations as they have, but it competes with grind time. Just let the grind happen through the foundry. Link 5-8 SPECIFIC foundry missions into a chain with 50000 dilithium and 150 choice marks or something (numbers just pulled out of air). Then if someone makes a foundry chain themselves give them a special wardrobe item, or ribbon for their uniform, something (uniform ribbons and medals would be awesome too, especially for accolades). While my ideas are not fully fleshed out, kids are screaming in the back ground be fed or washed or talked to-who knows, I just wanted to put some things out there and see what sticks.

Bugs don't bother me for an evolving game. The customer service is ok, considering their likely level of customer interaction and their limited budget for it. I think game play needs more diversity and the focus of all future developments is on FUN not grind. Some kind of ongoing fleet tournament would be nice. Rewards could even be starbase or holdings experience points to allow for immediate upgrades. I support the devs, they are trying to do things right and look forward to the future.

This is a fun game, a fun game with lots of potential that is still in development.

Last edited by milanvorius; 06-22-2013 at 08:15 AM.
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,775
# 12
06-22-2013, 08:15 AM
Originally Posted by purplegamer View Post
I was ecstatic about LoR to the point I spent money on STO for the first time in a good long while. But here I am experiencing that "I'm done" feeling the OP is talking about. I got through the content--which was great--but here I am once again at "end-game," shrugging my shoulders and wondering what it was all for.

I don't think I will ever understand the grind mentality--the process of grinding through repeatable missions for gear so that you can do those same repeatable missions in less time. It just doesn't make sense to slog through content to earn the stuff you wanted to play with during that content in the first place; you burn yourself out chasing the carrot for so long that the journey itself becomes loathsome.

MMOs really need to figure out how to make the end-game as exciting and fresh as the journey to get there. That or simply do away with the dinosaur concept of an end-game completely. It's silly.

What it boils down to is that I think I'm simply done with this game. Every big update looks like it's going to come dripping with new grinds all geared toward getting you pissed off and impatient enough to spend money.

Thank the Maker I'm not stupid enough to fall for it anymore.
Aye, I hear and agree with you.

Every time they big up the hype surrounding a new update, the following fallout from the mountain of bugs makes me dread the future updates, rather than look forward too them.

Fed: Eng Lib Borg (Five) Tac Andorian (Shen)
Originally Posted by reginamala78 View Post
The stick Cryptic keep bringing out isn't to discourage you from playing, its to discourage you from playing incorrectly. The beatings will continue until morale improves.
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,016
# 13
06-22-2013, 08:23 AM
Originally Posted by sunfrancks View Post
Aye, I hear and agree with you.

Every time they big up the hype surrounding a new update, the following fallout from the mountain of bugs makes me dread the future updates, rather than look forward too them.
Bugs are another problem that's making it difficult for me to log in. Specifically the little ones like cosmetic issues. I can't match colors on some of my Romulan outfits because the pallets are wonky and sometimes get shared with other costume pieces. I'm also peeved that I spent dilithium on a weapon that shoots from the floor under my character and not from the weapon itself.

They're annoying little gnats of bugs, but they add up. Big bugs don't bother me as much since they tend to get squashed with each update, but that's part of the problem: Cryptic keeps chasing the big-picture bugs while all the little ones linger--in some cases for years.
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,130
# 14
06-22-2013, 08:48 AM
I personally just love the mix of ground and Space in STO.

On one hand i love the size and openness of games like this. I also love the fact that is is continously evolving and expanding (well more or less), compared to a singleplayer game. As a player i love NOT to be the center of attention, like in a singleplayer game.
(It is almost like a second identity.)
I love the huge amount of customization (ships AND character) and long therm goals/motivation in STO or other MMOs.

No singleplayer game comes even close to this.

On the other hand i deeply hate the (subliminal forced) socialization in todays Singleplayergames and MMOs in general. When i play a game i just want to focus on the game and not on people talking about politics/religion or what they think of "funny" stuff or other things that don't belong to that game.
When i want to meet people i go out and meet some real friends in person, i don't need or want 100000 Facebook/MMO "friends".

So in the end it is a real love/hate relation i have with todays games.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,318
# 15
06-22-2013, 10:38 AM
Because it's free and I like star trek

It's a reporting error®
Career Officer
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 145
I play STO because I like the visuals and the "feel" of the game, the genre. Sure, it's not perfect but I've been playing online games practically since the beginning of the internet (seriously, if you knew how old I am in RL you'd laugh and hand me a "Depends") but none of these games is perfect. STO has 4 games in one, as has been mentioned. I like that, as well as the extreme variety of races and ships to build.

The grind? I don't mind the grind because I save the newly "grinded gear" for my next character to use, so I can level him faster and experience another game aspect. I'd like to see one ( and only one) set of reputation grade space and ground gear that can be made/chosen account rather than character bound though; but the harder and better something is to get, the more fun it is too have. It's interesting and fun to "grind" using different ships/builds to see which works best. So far, each has its own advantage and disadvantage and it's fun to see hich build works best overall, I don't specialize, I generalize.

I will commit STO heresy here by saying, without shame, that I like PUGS!. Sometimes you get good teams and sometimes bad and it's a challnge to figure out quickly which it is and try to exert some leadership to improve the less experienced players so as to avoid a total "PUG Wipeout" (15-0 PUGS are a "fail". anything less is a win depending on the level of the opposing team. To me, 14-1 against an extremely well coordinated, extremely well equipped team is just as satisfying a win as a 0-15 win against a group of disorganized inexperienced players). There is one group of Germans, in a fleet, that is so good that if I can get a 13-2 loss I may throw myself a party.

The gear and dilithium and star base tiers SHOULD BE hard to get and take forever to get! That's the whole point! Was it Thomas Paine who said "That which we achieve too easily, we esteem to lightly".

What's the point of "grinding for gear?" It depends. For me, winning, in one way or another in PVP and making it through a difficult PVE solo without being blown-up even once is the goal and satisfying.

Let me summarize the majority of the forum POSTs to save people time:
1. The game is great; The game stinks.
2. The visuls are great; The visuals stink.
3. They finally fixed the "x" bug; They never fix anything.
4. I upgraded to "gold"; I canceled my subsciption.
5.LOR is great: LOR stinks/ was disappointing.
6. I finally broke down and spent zen on "x" and am glad; The C-store is a rip-off and I hate them.
7. That's a good ship build; Your build stinks.
8. I love this game; I quit.

The game is what you make it. I like it. Please post your words of agreement, disagreement and ad hominum attacks, but please, no profanity. It's tedious. I doubt there is a swear word I haven't heard and I don't want to "grind" a dictionary to look one up if I haven't. See you at my next warp core explosion, hopefully I will be warping away from yours, not you from mine.
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 5,306
# 17
06-22-2013, 12:21 PM
To the OP: the missions/episodes are the single-player/co-op game. Once you finish that and get to level 50, it essentially becomes a mulitplayer game, with fleets, PVP, STFs, etc becoming available. You dont have to play that part of the game (likewise you dont have to play the SP/co-op part either), but it exists and is there for you to experience if you want.

To answer your question: I play because I like space sims, and I like thinking about multiplayer game design and theory. ST isnt really a space sim but its got some interesting game mechanics and I am still exploring some of the elements.
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 15,544
# 18
06-22-2013, 12:37 PM
I started playing because it was going to go F2P, and I got my hands on a copy of the Collector's Edition. Found a good fleet, been hanging with them ever since.

Still waiting on them to fix the Season 7 MACO bug.
Originally Posted by Yang Xiao Long
At least you two have something that drives you. I've just always, gone with the flow, you know.
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 7
# 19
06-22-2013, 12:40 PM
I have always been a Star Trek fan - that is why I am here. I very much enjoyed the storyline episodes, and usually pop in from time to time to replay a few on an alt or to flip doffs...I come and go alot. Why? because it gets boring and too grindy to hold my interest for more than a week or so at a time. Yeah....I already played the new Rom and Klingon missions. I do also enjoy the foundry missions from time to time as a break from the grind-fest that this game has become. Between the fleet grind, rep grind, gear grind, and dil grind........I would rather read to get my Trek fix or re watch an old episode.
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 51
# 20
06-22-2013, 01:34 PM
MASOCHISM pure and simple


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