Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,329
# 1 Two Issues with new Holding
06-22-2013, 01:29 PM
The First issue I have with the new holding is the obvious one that others have pointed out. The fact that your Dilithium Mine requires you to fund it WITH Dilithium... The logic escapes me. Even if you needed a little at first to get some reactors up and running to begin mining that would not take long and you would be up and processing your own Dilithium in no time. If that is not the case then this Mine is a horrible one because it gobbles up more of the resource you are mining then it produces. No business person would EVER consider THAT to be a worthwhile venture.


The second issue I have is that in the information the Devs put out for this say this: "The Dilithium Mine will provide another avenue of progression for fleets and allow them to offer more rewards and benefits to their members. These, along with the new social environment and new possibilities, combine to provide fun, interesting, and most of all, Trek experience for the fleets in STO."

Fun?... So... More grinding, more of our resources scattered away from the main base, this is supposed to be... FUN? Maybe if you are a masochist.

Trek Experience? Really? I mean I will grant it is more Trek then going around and blowing up everything that moves (Unless you are KDF anyway) but... um... So when do you recall in ANY of the shows ANY captain mining Dilithium? Do you remember them spending vast quantities of Dilithium to buy their ships and everything else they needed? Do you even remember any MENTION of a Fleet mining or buying things with Dilithium? I, for one, cannot think of a single instance. I remember the Cardassians used to send people to work in Dilithium mines as a life sentence for crimes LOL... So if that is the "Trek" experience we are supposed to be having then I am not amused.

Back in TOS I remember that there were a lot of Dilithium mining operations that would sell it to the Federation and other places in order to get things from the Federation and others but I do not recall Kirk doing the mining or any other Starfleet Captain doing it. After that the only currencies I generally remember were Credits which is what Starfleet used to barter with some species and amongst itself when needed and Gold Pressed Latinum which was the life blood of Economy among the Ferengie Alliance and thus practically the entire rest of the Alpha/Beta Quadrant.

DS9 also showed that in Starfleet you did not generally buy things you needed with Credits if you WERE Starfleet. You put in orders for things and if you wanted them faster the best way would be to trade other things directly for them. (So commodity trades and such would actually be more realistic to the shows) The idea that as a Starfleet officer you are having to buy everything with Dilithium blatantly suggests that you are NOT a Starfleet officer but instead just a mercenary loosely associated with Starfleet.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 585
# 2
06-22-2013, 03:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hasukurobi View Post
The First issue I have with the new holding is the obvious one that others have pointed out. The fact that your Dilithium Mine requires you to fund it WITH Dilithium... The logic escapes me. Even if you needed a little at first to get some reactors up and running to begin mining that would not take long and you would be up and processing your own Dilithium in no time. If that is not the case then this Mine is a horrible one because it gobbles up more of the resource you are mining then it produces. No business person would EVER consider THAT to be a worthwhile venture.


The second issue I have is that in the information the Devs put out for this say this: "The Dilithium Mine will provide another avenue of progression for fleets and allow them to offer more rewards and benefits to their members. These, along with the new social environment and new possibilities, combine to provide fun, interesting, and most of all, Trek experience for the fleets in STO."

Fun?... So... More grinding, more of our resources scattered away from the main base, this is supposed to be... FUN? Maybe if you are a masochist.

Trek Experience? Really? I mean I will grant it is more Trek then going around and blowing up everything that moves (Unless you are KDF anyway) but... um... So when do you recall in ANY of the shows ANY captain mining Dilithium? Do you remember them spending vast quantities of Dilithium to buy their ships and everything else they needed? Do you even remember any MENTION of a Fleet mining or buying things with Dilithium? I, for one, cannot think of a single instance. I remember the Cardassians used to send people to work in Dilithium mines as a life sentence for crimes LOL... So if that is the "Trek" experience we are supposed to be having then I am not amused.

Back in TOS I remember that there were a lot of Dilithium mining operations that would sell it to the Federation and other places in order to get things from the Federation and others but I do not recall Kirk doing the mining or any other Starfleet Captain doing it. After that the only currencies I generally remember were Credits which is what Starfleet used to barter with some species and amongst itself when needed and Gold Pressed Latinum which was the life blood of Economy among the Ferengie Alliance and thus practically the entire rest of the Alpha/Beta Quadrant.

DS9 also showed that in Starfleet you did not generally buy things you needed with Credits if you WERE Starfleet. You put in orders for things and if you wanted them faster the best way would be to trade other things directly for them. (So commodity trades and such would actually be more realistic to the shows) The idea that as a Starfleet officer you are having to buy everything with Dilithium blatantly suggests that you are NOT a Starfleet officer but instead just a mercenary loosely associated with Starfleet.
In case you hadn't noticed yet, Star Trek Online is little more than a thinly disguised Skinner Box designed to trap you in a never-ending loop of positive feedback>frustration>positive feedback to condition you and your brain to kick-in and say "Oh, gotta play, new Rep System/Starbase Project to fill out" as Cryptic releases them in a carefully measured manner. Every tier of Rep, every upgrade, is built to condition you to pursue the next project, the next piece of gear, the next carrot.
If you feel Keel'el's effect is well designed, please, for your own safety, be very careful around shallow pools of water.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,925
# 3
06-22-2013, 04:05 PM
Instead of Dilithium, they could have added something else as a requirement. More fleet marks, energy credits, etc.


Yes, putting the dilithium back in the mine does not sound logical.
Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 65
# 4
06-23-2013, 12:42 PM
Indeed. Personally I don't think this new fleet holding is meant to help smaller fleets at all. It's really just more "content" to grind through for the people that can afford to do so. It is exactly the opposite of what it was advertised as.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,525
# 5
06-25-2013, 06:02 AM
A lot of it depends on weather you're able to get dilithium out of it, after it reaches T3. If the Rich Dilithium Claim Daily isn't just the contact to turn in lockbox claims, but the possibility to do a daily rich claim mission and if you can get a decent amount of dilithium from the dailies and doff mining missions, it might make it worth it.

Of course it won't have an effect on those players who rech the 8k cap on every one their alts, but rather those that don't have the time to reach it or have alts with unused caps.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 994
# 6
06-25-2013, 09:06 AM
One thing people seem to have been leaving out of the conversation is that the mine, as it ranks up, is supposed to give you access to dailies that reward dilithium. I think a Doff assignment and the ability to go out and mine the asteroid. So, you have cost savings in terms of discounts to other holdings and no dil requirement for mine tier upgrades, plus it's going to provide some easily obtained dil through dailies. How much those dailies are worth, I'm not sure. I guess we'll have to see.

Expecting the mine to actually have negative effective dilithium cost, at least in the short term, I think was asking too much. That would undermine STO's entire F2P model, especially since the Mine also grants access to unique Mk XII UR gear. What the mine does is defray a certain amount of its own cost (so it's overall cheaper than the Embassy) while providing additional savings and increased production moving forward. It's an investment for the long term.

Does it make sense from a role play perspective that a dilithium mine would require dilithium to build? No, but it does from the perspective of dillithium being the core of STO's F2P model. It doesn't make sense that fleet holdings (especially starbases) require mountains of Doffs either. Seriously, where do those people go? Are we making glue out of them?
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,994
# 7
06-25-2013, 09:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shockwave85 View Post
One thing people seem to have been leaving out of the conversation is that the mine, as it ranks up, is supposed to give you access to dailies that reward dilithium. I think a Doff assignment and the ability to go out and mine the asteroid. So, you have cost savings in terms of discounts to other holdings and no dil requirement for mine tier upgrades, plus it's going to provide some easily obtained dil through dailies. How much those dailies are worth, I'm not sure. I guess we'll have to see.

Expecting the mine to actually have negative effective dilithium cost, at least in the short term, I think was asking too much. That would undermine STO's entire F2P model, especially since the Mine also grants access to unique Mk XII UR gear. What the mine does is defray a certain amount of its own cost (so it's overall cheaper than the Embassy) while providing additional savings and increased production moving forward. It's an investment for the long term.

Does it make sense from a role play perspective that a dilithium mine would require dilithium to build? No, but it does from the perspective of dillithium being the core of STO's F2P model. It doesn't make sense that fleet holdings (especially starbases) require mountains of Doffs either. Seriously, where do those people go? Are we making glue out of them?
That's the great coverup - the station's reactors run on a furnace that burns DOFFS!
Quote:
Originally Posted by robdmc View Post
Remember, this place [Captain's Table] is so desolate that upon entering the Aenigma Nebula you will be prompted with a warp out box because the game thinks you flew there by mistake.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 994
# 8
06-25-2013, 11:29 AM
Too bad I don't command a fleet, I'd name the base "Starbase Soylent Green"
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,329
# 9
06-29-2013, 10:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thegrimcorsair View Post
In case you hadn't noticed yet, Star Trek Online is little more than a thinly disguised Skinner Box designed to trap you in a never-ending loop of positive feedback>frustration>positive feedback to condition you and your brain to kick-in and say "Oh, gotta play, new Rep System/Starbase Project to fill out" as Cryptic releases them in a carefully measured manner. Every tier of Rep, every upgrade, is built to condition you to pursue the next project, the next piece of gear, the next carrot.
LOL... Well... Yes; Yes I have noticed this long ago. More precisely, the moment PWE took control the Box part became even more literal. Do not get me wrong in my complaint here... I am aware of the actual truth and nature of things but I feel SOMEONE ought to point out the laughable error of their statements.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mccarronxld View Post
Indeed. Personally I don't think this new fleet holding is meant to help smaller fleets at all. It's really just more "content" to grind through for the people that can afford to do so. It is exactly the opposite of what it was advertised as.
I could not really agree more. What else could you really see it as? It in no way helps small fleets and the funny thing is that it only barely even helps large fleets. It is just another pay gate and not much else.


Quote:
Originally Posted by fraghul2000 View Post
A lot of it depends on weather you're able to get dilithium out of it, after it reaches T3. If the Rich Dilithium Claim Daily isn't just the contact to turn in lockbox claims, but the possibility to do a daily rich claim mission and if you can get a decent amount of dilithium from the dailies and doff mining missions, it might make it worth it.

Of course it won't have an effect on those players who rech the 8k cap on every one their alts, but rather those that don't have the time to reach it or have alts with unused caps.
Considering how much Dilithium such things tend to give then I doubt it will be worth what is put in. You can get far faaaar more Dilithium from one Elite STF. Turn the Processors into Dilithium, Turn the Marks into Dilithium, and the natural Dilithium for completing the mission ends up with a sweet sum in a short time (if you have a good team).
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