Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,711
# 41
06-25-2013, 12:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by snoge00f View Post
It may just be me, but I don't recall the original mines holding as long as these mines do. They got buffed with the LoR release, for some dumb reason.

At the very least they are as bad as they original were.
It wouldn't be STO if stealth changes weren't the standard would it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by sorceror01 View Post
....you are a bad starship captain and you should feel bad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tachyonharmonic View Post
However, I think with regard to the Romulan Republic player characters/npcs, it all comes down to a finite point:

These are not the Romulans from the shows.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,425
# 42
06-25-2013, 12:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by iskandus View Post
First of all, thanks for making this video and sharing it. It's quite interesting to see.

After examining the content, I have to say I think the test is somewhat misleading.

Here is why:

- The bug ship deploying the mines are using DBP3 and every single tact buff out there, including Going Down Fighting (GDF), that's why the others were shooting it prior to deployment so that GDF can be deployed

- DBP3 is such a rarely seen skill for a reason, even dedicated cloaked bombers don't often have them, let alone a regular escort
Even if you leave out GDF, assuming half damage, you're still taking about half your entire hull - right through the shields. Is that not greater by an order of magnitude compared to any other weapon? Furthermore, the target of the mines was a cruiser. What if it was an escort that got hit? Or even a Sci ship? GDF would not be needed to pop that person.

DBP3 was so unused because there were no good mines to use them with. Now that there are, well, people will begin gravitating towards using them.

Quote:
- Testing done with GDF is not practical because it assumes a buff that can only be situationally deployed in rare circumstnaces as now hull has to be less 50% before it can be activated

- I noticed APA was also used to buff up the mines - however, APA has a 2 minutes CD so you can use it with these mines only 25% of the time assuming deployment at every 30 sec. interval to match the mines's CD, again not very practical

- The testing ignored the most important aspect of a mine's weakness - catching its opponent when they actually move : You will almost never encounter a stationary opponent in PvP, not unless they have passed out in front of their monitor, so how does the said bug ship intends to use these mines effectively with DBP3 without another skill(s) to disable or hold their target without them escaping easily?

- Bug ship with DBP3 will have very few means of disabling its opponent for 8-10 seconds for these mines to deploy, armed and start moving so while this is interesting on paper, the demonstration is very much theoretical, as opposed to being practical

- Theoretical damage really isn't very helpful in pvp unless they can translate into actual hits
All of which are valid points to think about. However, all of them were stated in the argument against tricobalt mines. Those were nerfed. In the almost exact same way, Tholian Web Mines can be said to be over the top.

Quote:
Mines have not been terribly popular since the tricobalt mine nerf because they take a long time to arm and this is no exception
Please note: since the tricobalt mine nerf. Now, these mines are nearly the equal of tricobalt mines before the nerf. Hence, it is pretty near certain that these mines will be as popular as tric mines were before the nerf.

Quote:
Tonight in Kerrat, I think I was the only one using it at all. Only came to the forum after someone started to talk about the numerous threads about this in the forum. I think many are finding it hard to incorporate them into their repertoire that's why.
And I would say you are mistaken. The reason being that these mines require plenty of resources to get, alongside needing t4 Nukara rep. I doubt that the majority of players have the marks/rep to obtain these mines just yet, and many simply focus on getting rep done first. Furthermore, few realize the potential these mines can have to create havoc. Once more start using them, you'll most likely see their popularity increasing.
Take it easy!

Ishmael@scurry5: A Nibbling Sci
"Squeak?"
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 5,587
# 43
06-25-2013, 01:11 AM
Y'know, the real interesting thing isn't so much the 'potential' damage with a full alpha running, or if these have counters, how OP they may or may not be...

...more that a lot of folks aren't quite catching just how effective these can be in a busy environment.

You give me someone good with mines (and I do mean actually skilled, not just spamming them), and no matter their ship, no matter their class, they will kill over and over with these, and there's going to be little a person can do about it.

Just as there are counters to mines, there are counters to the counters. And strategies around them.

My personal favorite is a simple one: Dummy mines.

Or in other words, you purposefully drop mines of your choosing with the sake of knowing that they will probably use a counter on them. Like a FAW, or a TBR, etc. Or hope that they try and waste an 'escape button' like APO, Evasives, Deuterium Surplus, etc. There are lots of fun things to do with them. I prefer transphasic mines if I want to hopefully do a little damage, or chroniton mines for a hopeful slow effect.

Once they waste their counters, I weaken them somehow, like a FOMM *if they have no TT*, or, as I usually run sci in these ships, an SNB/SS combo to make sure they can't do much of anything and they are gonna take a lot more damage. Once that's all nice and taken care of, then I launch my real mines and kill them off.

Generally I also add in ways of hiding mines, quite useful. Scramble Sensors (without DOFF) is a personal favorite. Great for hiding Tric mines right as it hits, it well, messes up their screen for a few moments due to that big white ball exploding, so what better way to hide them? Also, a bit of EWP is an excellent choice (when it doesn't glitch), as it also acts as a slow. Lots of fun things really.


Which is where the real danger comes in, vids are nice and all, but you get someone ACTUALLY good with mines, and then they go from just a potential 'I-win' button to an 'I always win' button.

Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 777
# 44
06-25-2013, 01:40 AM
Do these mines do AoE damage like tricobalts?

Thing is, I tested tricobalts extensively in both PvE and PvP in a B'rel bomber and found them not to be really worthwile in the usual PvP environment. The amount of spam, AoE and random explosions in PvP almost always destroyed them before they could arm. Only one or two mines occasionally went off and did some damage and wiped pets from the area, but that's it. Without their AoE I would have dropped them even before the nerf. Granted there was this one cheese build with the timestop console, but I didn't encounter this one very often (this one might have a comeback with the nukara mines though ...).

IMO tricobalts only really showed their power in PvE where I could easily kill structures and boss enemy in just a few seconds. This is also probably the main reason they got nerfed so heavily and not because of their impact in PvP. Now that pretty much everyone is running EPtE with 100% uptime and PvP battles often quickly shift from one edge of the map to another I don't see how mines can be used effectively. The video is nice, but when do we ever encounter a sitting duck in PvP apart from AFKers?
Captain
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,060
# 45
06-25-2013, 07:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by scurry5 View Post
Even if you leave out GDF, assuming half damage, you're still taking about half your entire hull - right through the shields. Is that not greater by an order of magnitude compared to any other weapon? Furthermore, the target of the mines was a cruiser. What if it was an escort that got hit? Or even a Sci ship? GDF would not be needed to pop that person.
Except the assumption in there still includes DPB3 and other buffs such as APA and APO, all of which are big ifs. Even if just one of the above isn't present, the damage potential drops dramatically. I know because I have been actually using it in pvp. When my mines are fired with all the buffs, they are very powerful, otherwise, not so much.

Quote:
DBP3 was so unused because there were no good mines to use them with. Now that there are, well, people will begin gravitating towards using them.
Not sure about that. See, I run a dedicated Transphasic build. Prior to acquiring these mines, there is nothing but Transphasic Torpedos on my ship. At one point, I even installed one Mk XII purple Transphasic mines to be used with DPB3 but gave it up after just a few days. In theory, that one mine which disperse up to 14 mines at once with all the buffs that I have can hit about 1.8K of post-shield base damage per mine due to its 80% bleedthrough. 1.8K X 14, pretty close to a base damage of 25K in one swoop and let's not even mention what would happen if they go critical. There is however some big problems with this, one of it being the sacrifice of APO3 and the other is the difficulty for these mines to hit their target. Eventually, it was decided that the hit % is too low for these mines or the DBP3 to worth its while. Even with these web mines, I am still not going back to DBP3. Simply put, there are too many situations in pvp where you need APO3 to save your behind so its exclusion would be pretty much suicidal. The compromise is DPB1 and that's where it will stay.

Quote:
All of which are valid points to think about. However, all of them were stated in the argument against tricobalt mines. Those were nerfed. In the almost exact same way, Tholian Web Mines can be said to be over the top.
Interesting argument except the other powers have also been modified / changed greatly since the time of tricobalt mines epidemic. For one thing, no one could have 100% uptime with their EptE. Plasma shockwave didn't exist. And Dilithium mine and their enhanced armors don't either, and much much more. It's one thing to look at a power in isolation, it's quite another when put in practice and see how they interact in the real world or else, the great weapon in theory remains just that, a paper tiger, nothing more


Quote:
Please note: since the tricobalt mine nerf. Now, these mines are nearly the equal of tricobalt mines before the nerf. Hence, it is pretty near certain that these mines will be as popular as tric mines were before the nerf.
There is no evidence in support of this theory however. It's been almost two weeks since the first people started to acquire them in the Holodeck. So far, they are still rarely seen. However, when the Adapted Destroyer were made available, people were flying them all over the place by the 2nd day of LoR. And 2 weeks is a very long time on STO.


Quote:
And I would say you are mistaken. The reason being that these mines require plenty of resources to get, alongside needing t4 Nukara rep. I doubt that the majority of players have the marks/rep to obtain these mines just yet, and many simply focus on getting rep done first. Furthermore, few realize the potential these mines can have to create havoc. Once more start using them, you'll most likely see their popularity increasing.
I don't agree with that. PvP tend to have the highest concentration of "dedicated" players. It's been almost two weeks since the first wave of them hit T4 Nukara as the T5 is nothing to write home about and would have acquired this long ago. It would make more sense to review this issue once we are actually seeing a real epidemic use of this weapon. Until then, it's just pure speculation based on conjecture.
Captain
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,060
# 46
06-25-2013, 08:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mimey2 View Post

You give me someone good with mines (and I do mean actually skilled, not just spamming them), and no matter their ship, no matter their class, they will kill over and over with these, and there's going to be little a person can do about it.
Only if your opponent is a dummy. You will surprise them once, maybe twice. Soon or later, they will adapt. Even the BoP Alpha is becoming rare in Kerrat these days. People adapt, technology changes so some tactics will fall out of favor.


Quote:
Just as there are counters to mines, there are counters to the counters. And strategies around them.
Indeed, except there are enough variety in the counters such that you can't anticipate them all. Jotkom ran a Klink Sci carrier as an engineer. He can really be a PvP coach on how to counter massive alpha attacks involving mines. I wish I had recorded my skirmishes with him in Kerrat two days ago. I was in awe how he dodged my attacks, including jam sensors and subnukes, not to mention countless number of cluster torps and DBP dispersed web mines. Occasionally, he will be hit but not enough to kill him. The downside is his attacks had less pressure so he was on the defensive all the time but I couldn't kill him on my own - well except once, when I ambushed him in surprise. I have been thinking if I see him next, I will be using Theta Radiation because he is a slow carrier and I will be making sure his HE is overwhelmed.


Quote:
Once they waste their counters, I weaken them somehow, like a FOMM *if they have no TT*, or, as I usually run sci in these ships, an SNB/SS combo to make sure they can't do much of anything and they are gonna take a lot more damage. Once that's all nice and taken care of, then I launch my real mines and kill them off.

Generally I also add in ways of hiding mines, quite useful. Scramble Sensors (without DOFF) is a personal favorite. Great for hiding Tric mines right as it hits, it well, messes up their screen for a few moments due to that big white ball exploding, so what better way to hide them? Also, a bit of EWP is an excellent choice (when it doesn't glitch), as it also acts as a slow. Lots of fun things really.
What you are describing is some of the effective combo attacks that MUST accompany these mines to make them useable. And you are correct - on their own, these mines have almost no chance of ever hitting their target saving for some people stupid enough to fly into them themselves and yes, it happens all the time. Did you notice all these supportive powers described are virtually all sci powers? Precisely, a DHC happy Escort will not be able to use these combos as they don't have the necessary Sci power to support them. At best, they will have a tractor beam and it's not even going to be tractor beam 3 and that's all. In other words, this isn't some I Win button for anyone and everyone. Rather, in order to make these work - one requires a dedicated build which only Sci oriented ships or captains can pull it off.

Given how the DPS of this game has been so biased towards the Escorts for a long time, isn't it logical to tip the balance back more justly by giving the Sci a weapon that allows them to keep the Escorts in check? Conversely, why should this weapon be "balanced" so that Escorts can once again fly anywhere and everywhere mindlessly without any fear? Cruisers really don't have fear for this weapon, Jotkom is the proof. It seems to me, this whole thread is yet another veiled attempt by crying Escorts hoping to nerf something that doesn't favor them.


Quote:
Which is where the real danger comes in, vids are nice and all, but you get someone ACTUALLY good with mines, and then they go from just a potential 'I-win' button to an 'I always win' button.
You can pull it off Jotkom, then I'll believe you. Good luck is all I can say to you. Really, I think you are underestimating the intelligence of a lot of PvPers.

Last edited by iskandus; 06-25-2013 at 08:20 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,060
# 47
06-25-2013, 08:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by eisenw0lf View Post
Do these mines do AoE damage like tricobalts?

Thing is, I tested tricobalts extensively in both PvE and PvP in a B'rel bomber and found them not to be really worthwile in the usual PvP environment. The amount of spam, AoE and random explosions in PvP almost always destroyed them before they could arm. Only one or two mines occasionally went off and did some damage and wiped pets from the area, but that's it. Without their AoE I would have dropped them even before the nerf. Granted there was this one cheese build with the timestop console, but I didn't encounter this one very often (this one might have a comeback with the nukara mines though ...).

IMO tricobalts only really showed their power in PvE where I could easily kill structures and boss enemy in just a few seconds. This is also probably the main reason they got nerfed so heavily and not because of their impact in PvP. Now that pretty much everyone is running EPtE with 100% uptime and PvP battles often quickly shift from one edge of the map to another I don't see how mines can be used effectively. The video is nice, but when do we ever encounter a sitting duck in PvP apart from AFKers?
The web mines are definitely not AOE.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,236
# 48
06-25-2013, 12:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by iskandus View Post
The web mines are definitely not AOE.
Unless that area just happens to be your ship

They should really rename the description of these mines to be more indicative of their fatal attraction.

I was thinking something along the lines of, "10..9..8..7..1.. {Help me!}".

Perhaps for artistic flare, throw in a nice little annotation [in a weak emasculated kitten voice]: "10..9..8..7..1.. {Help me!}"

Last edited by drkfrontiers; 06-25-2013 at 12:09 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,744
# 49
06-25-2013, 01:45 PM
Don't waste your time with that guy.

He's just another console kid who doesn't want his toys taken away.

He showed it in that Valdore thread, and now here again.

And he's a 1v1er too, lulz, so his experience doesn't cover teamplay at all.


Click here and here if you are interested in learning more about PvP.
Ensign
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 18
# 50
06-26-2013, 08:39 AM
While the amount of damage the mines can do needs looking at, surely they must have been intended to do kinetic damage rather than physical damage? It seems extremely odd for a space weapon of any kind to do physical damage.
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