Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 611
02-26-2010, 02:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderanger
Native means not using DirectX, and for a huge number of reasons I can't possibly cover here OpenGL is not a viable option for making games anymore.
It would be interesting to hear more about this, if you ever get time to write it up. Funny story: some directx games actually run faster under wine on the same hardware, because in some cases translating directx calls into GL ones has less overhead than Microsoft's directx implementation. Makes me wonder why people keep feeding the directx cuckoo.

If game developers could express specific, verifiable issues they have with the GL interfaces, solutions will be found. This has been the driving factor behind a few major changes to the system, but rarely happens because game developers usually just mumble about familiarity and costs.

Quote:
"official support"
These words have always been marketing nonsense. They never mean anything.

Funnily enough, while it would be easier for somebody who had access to the game source, it's usually more practical to fix bugs like these on the wine side. We can figure out most of what's going on just by watching the API calls (and, occasionally, identify bugs in the game this way).
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 612
02-26-2010, 05:31 AM
I don't really want this thread to turn into some type of debate over Mac vs PC and such... it should mainly be able getting STO to work in its current form on our own, unofficially.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tappdarden View Post
1 better video card support. adding in more features like AA and other features.
2 fonts looking good. (they do look a lot better then before, did you guys do something to help with that?)
3 better support for multi-monitor setup
4 better full screen / window mode
5 better support for resolution switching
6 stop flipping from hardware mouse to software mouse causing a second trailing mouse. (easy to fix..
7 alt-key
8 stop that crazy camera jumping around when mouse viewing and mac mouse goes off screen.
1. This will be fixed eventually, but will take some more Wine development so may not be any time soon. More than likely with transgaming, with how Cider works, it wouldn't be a problem.

2. They are tons better than they were during beta and right after launch, not a major deal anymore.

3. This is an Xquartz limitation, I've been looking for decent automatic work-arounds... and they don't seem to be planning to change how multi-monitors work in it anytime soon from what I've seen. Shouldn't be a problem for Crossover's X11 or Cider.

4. Also an Xquartz limitation. Crossover doesn't have this problem, as they don't use Xquartz, they have their own custom X server. Cider wouldn't have much of an issue, except they don't support a normal windowed mode. But it can easily stick to fullscreen and run in a virtual desktop type window and switch back and forth fine.. but it wouldn't be exactly like it is on Windows.

5. A problem with Xquartz again.... Crossover's X server doesn't have as much of a problem. This is something we might be able to get patched into the detection of STO... since it doesn't figure out graphics cards or available resolutions... it should be able to get that info passed on from X... but I'm not really that great with X, which is why I use stock Xquartz builds. Cider shouldn't have this issue, since it doesn't use X.

6. Mine hasn't done this in a long time, I'm not sure what I changed, maybe Coderanger can tell us what can cause it to automatically turn on

7. This will be fixed as soon as a full release of Xquartz 2.5.0 with xorg server 1.8 is out... I can build it for Wineskin and have it up really quick after its available. The Xquartz maintainer said the key issues should be fixed, I'll be testing it within hours of a RC being available for 2.5.0, and even bundle up a STO version with the RC if it doesn't have any issues with STO. I had some weird crashing issues in STO last time I tried the devel version. This shouldn't be an issue in Crossover or Cider.

8. This is something to do with how STO is figuring out mouse movement... to say in a very non-tech way. This is probably something that could be altered in STO, but depending on how its coded, could be difficult and not worth it. Its only a problem when using a virtual desktop, which is also only needed cuz Xquartz has issues... in Linux or if we didn't need the VD, it would work fine. In fact you can kind of get this working without using a virtual desktop in window, and it doesn't happen. I'll maybe write up a little thing on how to get it that way, just know that stretching the window makes it very crash happy, and its very difficult to get back to fullscreen after changing, as its also very crash happy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tappdarden View Post
Now that I've played STO and I know what type of games you guys make I would be more tempted to try champions then I would normally be.(not that into MMOs nor super heros) However, no native client for Champions . i'm told winskin can do it. But its just not worth it for me. Perhaps I should go buy CoH.(now that it has a native client)
I think your using the term Native incorrectly. No Cider port is native, including CoH. Cider is based off Cedega, and old fork off of the Wine project that used to be called WineX. It runs the normal Windows version of programs just like Wineskin does. In fact it can be used for other things (though not really legally) Some Windows only games run fine, like I have Oblivion running great using Cider out of an older version of City of Heroes. The only thing "native" in CoH is the login/patcher.



Quote:
Originally Posted by coderanger
All this talk about "official support" is really just a distraction from the simple fact that we do, indeed, care about OS X and Linux users and intend to do our best to support them, even though we can't do it as well as Windows since we lack the experience.
I think the biggest issue is that official support makes news, and lets people know its available... Transgaming would be able to make a Cider version that is professional enough to call official, and while cheaper and easier than making a native port, its still not cheap. But I appreciate all you do, and have lotsa fun playing, and love that I don't need Windows. I still dream of the day that someone somewhere forces MS to license out DirectX... and it is supported on Macs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wrd View Post
And yet, Blizzard manages to release every title simultaneously for the Mac and Windows -- and curiously enough, has about twice as many Mac WoW users as STO has total users. So "not a viable option" seems like a bit of an exaggeration.

Granted that a Cider port isn't native -- but it provides a Mac box, a non-fidgety Mac install, and it registers as a Mac sale, and it implies a certain commitment on the part of the company to support it if something breaks.
Blizzard is one of the few companies that have a some very VERY experienced and very good Mac developers on staff. Anyone who wants to get into Mac development pretty much has to do it all on their own, since anyone fresh out of school is taught all Windows. When I get the time in a few years, I'm going to take all the Mac programming classes I can... I just don't have the time. I really really wish I could work on Wine in a helping way, but most of it is over my head. I really would like to write a Quartz driver so X11 isn't needed, but my attempts at starting with the current version people were making left my brain smoking. I just don't know enough about development on OSX. Then'd I'd move on to better directX... who knows. But is all a hobby, my actual plan is to be in medical school in about 2 years... but who knows, I love this enough I might be working for Codeweavers in a few years instead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MillsUK View Post
Secondly, Blizzard are a multi-billion pound organisation, so for them, the viability in supporting/making/patching an official mac client, is good. You even pointed out that WoW has twice the mac users that STO has total users, so how is not vaible on cyptics part an exaggeration.
Blizzard has made Mac games well before they were the way they are now... even before they knew WoW would take off so big they made a Mac client. Its not quite as hard when you have the staff that knows how. Although Coderanger doesn't believe its viable to use anything but DirectX, I think that only factors into the people and money, not the actual tech. With the right skill set, it shouldn't be any harder to make non-DX versions of games... but those skill sets and people are in very short supply, which end up being expensive. As much as I hate transgaming with their Wine history and splitting off and stopping working on Wine so they could focus on profits... they have helped a lot with Cider to make gaming on Macs more viable. Wine and Cider are really the only ways of running DX on Macs right now.... and with no help from Microsoft, people have to figure out how to do it all on their own with trial and error, so development is not fast, and never finished, as its always a moving target.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miiru
some directx games actually run faster under wine on the same hardware, because in some cases translating directx calls into GL ones has less overhead than Microsoft's directx implementation.
OpenGL is not why some games run faster under Wine.... its usually more about the incomplete and highly optimized d3d in Wine... has less overhead well before using OpenGL for the graphics.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 613
02-26-2010, 05:42 AM
I find it hard to believe there are over 2 million + people consistently playing WoW on Macs. I'm also going to be if there are that many, they have a really nice desktop PC that they regularly play on for 90% of their time in game.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 614
02-26-2010, 06:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Penth View Post
I find it hard to believe there are over 2 million + people consistently playing WoW on Macs. I'm also going to be if there are that many, they have a really nice desktop PC that they regularly play on for 90% of their time in game.
why? a couple million Mac users isn't that many... maybe more people use Macs than you think? they sell millions of new Macs every quarter.... Apple is the 4th largest "PC" manufacturer in the US. with somewhere around 8%ish of the US market.

I doubt its really 2 million too, cuz WoW is just... boring, but when its one of the few MMORPGs available, sometimes people play it cuz of no other choices they like.

Why would they need another computer to primarily play on? WoW isn't very demanding, theres not a current Mac sold that cannot run it well.

STO is much more demanding than WoW, and it runs pretty good with Wine. WoW is completely native, no Wine/Cider in there to run it.... it runs fantastic.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 615 Blank Cryptic Launcher Window
02-26-2010, 06:51 AM
Hey guys,

This has probably come up before, I just haven't had the time to read the hundreds of posts here on this thread. I have successfully installed STO using wineskin RC7 but as soon as i try to run the STO.exe the Cryptic launcher window is just a white blank screen... any ideas why it shows blank? theres no progress bar for patching, no "engage" button, not even a picture of the box art, the window is just blank. Can anyone help me out please?



Mac OS X Version 10.6
Processor 2.8 ghz intel core 2 duo
Memory 4 GB ddr3
NVIDIA Geforce 9400 M / 9600 M GT
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 616
02-26-2010, 07:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by XaivierCross View Post
This has probably come up before, I just haven't had the time to read the hundreds of posts here on this thread. I have successfully installed STO using wineskin RC7 but as soon as i try to run the STO.exe the Cryptic launcher window is just a white blank screen... any ideas why it shows blank? theres no progress bar for patching, no "engage" button, not even a picture of the box art, the window is just blank. Can anyone help me out please?
I answered you earlier, though its easy to miss it with all the stuff that got posted recently.

Stock Wineskin RC7 will not run it, a blank white screen is normal... you need to download the STO version link I have near the bottom of the first post, its been customized to run STO right. Use that and not a stock Wineskin wrapper.

Wineskin is a tool to help make wrappers... it cannot run many things by default. Sharing the customized wrapper for STO is the easiest way to do it.

There are tons of wrappers (Wineskin and hacks of Crossover and Cider) floating around the web customized for hundreds of "Windows only" games.

If you want to use a stock Wineskin wrapper for a game, you have to do all the work yourself to get it to work.

Stock Wineskin RC7 actually can run STO, though it'll have a couple little annoying issues on the log in. Just use Winetricks in the Tools section of WineskinSettings.app and install IE7 (fixes white screen you see)... then for the most part, STO will run.... with no sound, you'll have to do something else to fix that, Much easier to use the wrapper I have set up.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 617
02-26-2010, 07:04 AM
shoot: perhaps this should be moved to another thread - after I posted this saw dohs message above...

Quote:
Originally Posted by coderanger
Transgaming's Cider is not a native system.
No you are right - I miss spoke. Both wineskin and cider pretty much do exactly the same thing. The advantage with cider is you end up with a game that is more mac like then what we currently get with xquartz. The X11 system on a mac sucks and thats what xquartz is. Maybe all these problems I listed will be fixed - I don't know. But when it comes to wine it will always lag behind Microsoft. It will always be not as good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderanger
Both the Wine and Codeweavers teams are aware of them, and thats pretty much all we can do.
or you could pay transgamming to fix them for you and keep the Mac versions up to date. You could even bring them in earlier in the development phase and have simultaneous releases. As it is now, you have to hope that there is a doh in the comunitiy to create wineskin. and lets face it, doh is not that common. We are pretty lucky to have a doh to work on this in her (or his) spare time. and if it wasn't for doh I would be rebooting into windows to play this game. Most Windows only games don't have a doh in their community to create a wineskin for the game. thats not scientific. Let me rephrase that. Most windows games i'm interested in playing don't seem to work in macosx in any form(codeweavers, wine or otherwise)

Unless you can do something like this
Quote:
Originally Posted by Star Trek online FAQ"
Q: What are the system requirements?
A: The minimum system requirements are:

* OS: Windows XP SP2 / Windows Vista / Windows 7 (32 or 64-bit) or Mac OS 10.6
* CPU: Intel Core 2 Duo 1.8 Ghz or AMD Athlon X2 3800+
* Memory: 1GB RAM
* Video: NVIDIA GeForce 7950 / ATI Radeon X1800 / Intel HD Graphics
* Sound: DirectX 9.0c Compatible Soundcard
* DirectX: Version 9.0c or Higher
* HDD: 10GB Free Disk Space
* Network: Internet Broadband Connection Required
* Disc: 6X DVD-ROM
you are losing customers. or at least not selling to as big of an audience as you could be. If it wasn't for the fact that this game is Star Trek I would have passed over it pretty fast. Not realizing all the hard work you are putting in to make it work on non-windows OSs.
is it enough to spend the resources for a fully supported mac client ? (even if its a cider/wine or other not emulator concoction) I don't know. Maybe its not in the money to do it. Even if NCSoft and Paragon did it with CoH(wasn't that one of your games?). or blizzard has been doing it for 15 years, or ....

If doh decides to move on and THEN everybody fixes their bugs in wine we mac users will be left out in the cold because doh (or another doh) has to update wineskin with the newer version of wine and xquartz. and if nobody is around to do that...
Now if you hired a doh and made it a position in cryptic to make sure you always had a working client for mac (and maybe linux) for the game then that would be different.
(if you ever do hire such a person even if its not doh the position should be called doh !)

I do know all my jaggaty lines inside the game (no AA is the reason?) is starting to get on my nerves.
The differences between the companies that succeed at selling their products for the Mac vs. the companies that try and fail is how committed they are to the mac version. Making sure their product has feature parity, make sure all the "little" issues are fixed, Make sure the Mac community doesn't feel like a second class citizen. *Psst, this is currently how it is with you, except not even trying to sell to the mac community*

But please, if all you are going to do is fix what you can fix and report the bugs in wine (which is all you are doing now right?) please don't stop! its awesome. But if you ask me if there is anything more you could do, well... i hope i pointed you in the right direction.

p.s. you are detecting wine dlls at boot up... any way to gather this information to see real numbers of how many players are playing under wine ? That would be interesting. and would bring hard numbers about the more techie people who are willing to deal with it now.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 618
02-26-2010, 07:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tappdarden View Post
But when it comes to wine it will always lag behind Microsoft. It will always be not as good.
until MS licenses out DirectX and maybe more... we'll have to deal with Wine reproducing it for us. MS will hold on to it as much as they can, they love the fact that games are made for DX and DX is Windows and Xbox only.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tappdarden View Post
or you could pay transgamming to fix them for you and keep the Mac versions up to date. You could even bring them in earlier in the development phase and have simultaneous releases.
they have their hands full at the moment. They should have planned things earlier on, but we have what we have, and at this time, you just need to be more patient. Its likely there will be an official Cider (or whatever) version in the future, but nothing happens quickly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tappdarden View Post
As it is now, you have to hope that there is a doh in the comunitiy to create wineskin. and lets face it, doh is not that common. We are pretty lucky to have a doh to work on this in her (or his) spare time. and if it wasn't for doh I would be rebooting into windows to play this game. Most Windows only games don't have a doh in their community to create a wineskin for the game. thats not scientific. Let me rephrase that. Most windows games i'm interested in playing don't seem to work in macosx in any form(codeweavers, wine or otherwise)
Wine on Macs is more on the new side, since it was basically impossible before Apple switched to x86 processors. There are actually hundreds of games that can run on OSX with wrappers like this.... though I'm trying to make Wineskin to be able to be the main way to do it since its legal, and most people hack Crossover or Cider to do it. But people don't keep up with them after they make them. Like people have gotten Modern Warfare 2 wrappers working with Wineskin, but if it breaks in a patch in the future, the person who made it has moved on and might not be updating anything. I make Wineskin, but its other interested parties who use it to make individual game wrappers. Being that I make Wineskin, and into STO is less likely it'll disappear though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tappdarden View Post
If doh decides to move on and THEN everybody fixes their bugs in wine we mac users will be left out in the cold because doh (or another doh) has to update wineskin with the newer version of wine and xquartz. and if nobody is around to do that...
Now if you hired a doh and made it a position in cryptic to make sure you always had a working client for mac (and maybe linux) for the game then that would be different.
(if you ever do hire such a person even if its not doh the position should be called doh !)
I'll always be updating Wineskin, its my baby... I want to make it a great tool in the future, even though its very rough right now... so more 'Windows only' games can be run on OSX.... but I do fall behind on updating wrappers I have made, many games wrappers floating around I've made are way behind and need to be updated... but I pretty much only focus on older games, 98% of games that come out I have no interest in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tappdarden View Post
I do know all my jaggaty lines inside the game (no AA is the reason?) is starting to get on my nerves.

p.s. you are detecting wine dlls at boot up... any way to gather this information to see real numbers of how many players are playing under wine ? That would be interesting. and would bring hard numbers about the more techie people who are willing to deal with it now.
yeah.. AA would fix that.

detecting Wine players wouldn't be much of a help right now since the overwhelming majority of players and potential players have no idea it exists or how to do it. Cryptic cannot really mention this "unofficial" way in any way people would see it a lot, cuz it would look like they endorsed it and open up a big can of support problems.

I think the quickest way to get it running the best, might be when Codeweavers makes is an officially supported title in Crossover Games. All the Xquartz problems aren't issues in Crossover since they make their own x.org based X server. I'm all for people buying Crossover, it helps make Wine better.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 619
02-26-2010, 08:22 AM
doh, agree with everything you said.

this is NOT a mac vs. windows argument and I hope it stays that way.

I can't really fault them in anyway. They could have decided to make champions for windows and mac and done things way back then to make it easier... but they didn't and you cant really blame them. Macs being such a small percentage of the market. (debatable how small but still small) and a game programmer often grows in a universe of only windows and never put much thought into anything else.

the question was asked what more could they do and I answered. Now is it feasible to do more ? I don't know. I was defending the user who said they are voting with their $ because of no official support and I has defending this person. everybody was down on him. and I know i've done much the same way for other games. NOT buying a game that is windows only simply because rebooting into windows(which is a bit of a hassle) or getting wine to work is too much work.(and may run slow even if I do) But if the game did have a mac version I would buy it. Point is that even I, a self proclaimed power user, don't buy games I would buy simply because of no mac client. and If I don't, how do you expect the rest of my Mac using family to buy the game? (enter: normal non-techie mac user)

Point is games like Dragon Age and spore(and the rest of EA games) look and act very much like a native application even though they are not. But they feel native enough to fool most mac users. (even trick me into using the wrong words)

and as i've said in my last 2 posts, it may not be in the financials to make a mac sto client now or in the future. I don't know. Point is, that is it technically possible and with enough resources it CAN happen and many many companies HAVE made it work. But given our current situation with STO and cryptic it may not work. What works for blizzard and paragon may not work for cryptic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by doh123
I'll always be updating Wineskin, its my baby... I
except when you go to medical school and find that sucks up all of your time including real life and sleep. I'm not saying you will or will not leave this project - but currently it is JUST you right? or am I mistaken? for this project to succeed it needs to have more then one developer so it can survive if any one person were to leave.... My point is not that you will leave the project. But that you might. lets face it, life happens. I guess you could also say that cryptic might go under and I would have just wasted my life-time sub so whats the difference in risk?

Quote:
Originally Posted by doh123
detecting Wine players wouldn't be much of a help right now
They currently detect wine dlls. Its how they fixed the renderscale problem and a few other things. the game detects if its running under wine and switches on or off somethings. A dev mentioned it on this massive thread someplace.
What I don't know is if they keep track of what types of configurations the players are using? and if the game can detect if its running under wine on linux vs. wine on mac....
If you assume the players using wine are hardcore/power users then you might be able to extrapolate the numbers of more players you would have if you made a client that allows you to change the system requirements to include mac os x. and if its worth to throw money to fix all these "little" problems rather or not the problem is with wine or with the game itself (or someplace else)
BUT even if thats not good scientific data I would still like to know what percentage of sto players are playing under wine. is it even 1% ?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 620
02-26-2010, 08:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tappdarden View Post
except when you go to medical school and find that sucks up all of your time including real life and sleep. I'm not saying you will or will not leave this project - but currently it is JUST you right? or am I mistaken? for this project to succeed it needs to have more then one developer so it can survive if any one person were to leave.... My point is not that you will leave the project. But that you might. lets face it, life happens. I guess you could also say that cryptic might go under and I would have just wasted my life-time sub so whats the difference in risk?
Thing might slow down, but not disappear... it will also not need nearly as much work by then as it needs now.

It is just me... mostly. There is another person who volunteered, but he hasn't done much of anything really (yet)... he's been learning some programming stuff, and things about 10.6+ changes... and will hopefully be able to contribute some stuff in the future. Its hard to find anyone to volunteer, plus I'm a bit of a control freak. Most of the people who use it that give me ideas and test things are the biggest help. Its not a huge project that needs many people because all the main work is done by Wine and Xquartz. My plan is one day it will be very easy to use it to make a wrapper for a game, and be able to share them, and they work (like Cider) where its hard to tell they aren't a native app. But I gotta finish the builder version I'm working on for building wrappers and managing engines and updates.. before I make it a 1.0. Full super good probably wont be until like a version 5 :p
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