Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,682
# 11
06-28-2013, 08:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by resoundingenvoy View Post
2) Make the attack pattern a less abstract thing, and make the ship actually fly in a preset pattern outside the player's control.
Because we all want our ship suddenly moving by itself, for 10-20seconds.
We all want to have our targets escaping our firing angle, and being unable to do anything about that.
Any player would enjoy being unable to simply run away for his/her life.
And most importantly, we all want to start moving toward a non aggroed Cube in eSTF, and be responsible for the over aggro, not mentioning our death.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 432
# 12
06-28-2013, 09:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shar487a View Post
Your 1st post says it all:

There is no reason to be displeased with AP-Omega since it provides multiple benefits and is available to all captain-professions. [...] the only reason to dislike AP-Omega is if your current ship cannot take advantage of AP-Omega [...]
That is an assumption that is never stated by me, and one that is false. I have two separate builds that use APO, though I only use one of them regularly. My motive not explicitly stated? It offends my concept of a fair and balance game I can enjoy while giving the people I play with the same chance, but that wasn't part of my case. It is after all a game I want people to enjoy so they come back to play with me again!

I did not expand my case to include a tactical professions, just most tactical ships. I agree in so far is making the dividing line a profession instead of a ship is a bad one. So, that's not the line I drew.

That's just for further reference, and has not to do with my case directly. I'm very poor at spelling, but I do choose my words with a obsessive level of care. [edit]If I didn't explicitly say something, there is a very high chance it wasn't by mistake. Though I am imperfect.[/edit]

Quote:
Your reasons were not ignored -- they just weren't convincing.
Then a question should have been raised. You're right, I wasn't 'ignored' by the definition of the word.
-------

Quote:
AP-Omega's numerous benefits are offset by its short 15 second duration with a 1 minute cooldown. Therefore, AP-Omega is best used when opposing ships attempt to tractor beam, teleport, web mine, or otherwise incapacitate the AP-Omega-user's ship. AP-Omega cannot be blindly spammed like AP-Beta and AP-Delta -- it must be used judiciously for optimum effect.

I see plenty of non-tactical players running AP-Omega in their builds. Likewise with EPtS, Hazard Emitters, and other "very cool" abilities with no down-sides whatsoever. By your argument, should all must-have STO BOFF skills be nerfed?
Simply? Because that was never my argument, or at least I never meant it to be.

My case in other words is that Attack Pattern Omega does more in one slot then any two other abilities combine (though granted not as well as other), and it does it in a place that allows it to do away with trade offs with no 1:1 loss in what was traded for.

Last edited by resoundingenvoy; 06-28-2013 at 10:54 PM.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 432
# 13
06-28-2013, 10:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by erei1 View Post
Because we all want our ship suddenly moving by itself, for 10-20seconds.
We all want to have our targets escaping our firing angle, and being unable to do anything about that.
Any player would enjoy being unable to simply run away for his/her life.
And most importantly, we all want to start moving toward a non aggroed Cube in eSTF, and be responsible for the over aggro, not mentioning our death.
Ok, I can accept that, but a counter point?

APO allow smaller ships to control when to engage or disengage larger slower ships almost at will. If the fight goes poorly, Attack Pattern Omega removes the one ubiquitous counter someone else has to pin a attacker down (tractor beam). In addition its gives a defensive boost, and a speed boost in one slot. In a nut shell? Carrier for example, can not stop, slow, or out turn most escorts.

A escort is practically free to attack one, and if the attack goes poorly? Run away with ease to find another target or harass a carrier until they can outright win.

-------

To continue from shar487a's example? The above carrier would need _at minimum_ polarize hull, and evasive maneuvers to match. That's two separate power with a minimum execution time of 3seconds. (The server will not allow more then one power to execute in a 1.5 second window, if I recall the engine City Of Heroes had and STO was slapped together from correctly.) Polarize Hull has 45sec cool down, and Evasive Maneuvers a 60second cool down. Neither provide the same utility as a single APO. (Polarize hull matches the duration for 15second, but EV only has a duration of 8seconds.) Nor does that include the damage bonus granted. APO can also be used faster then base 60 second cooldown with the correct DOFF, or with a second APO slotted I believe. (I will admit to not having tried to slot two APO at once.)

As someone is sure to point out, that is a tactical ships entire point. To be tactical, that isn't my problem. I want tactical ships to be tactical. I don't want tactical ships to be tactical and be able to ignore deliberate weakness without losings some of their strength in return!

Last edited by resoundingenvoy; 06-28-2013 at 10:18 PM.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 432
# 14
06-28-2013, 11:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by insanesenator View Post
[...]

"Attack Pattern: Espilon; For the next 15 seconds, all weapons do 15% less damage, but you take 30% less damage during the duration"

Classic "Ironskin" type ability, do less damage, but receive even less. Good situational cooldown, with a cost.

Attack Pattern: Tau; For 15 seconds, each projectile weapon fired reduces recharge delay by 100% (by half, STO math) and reduces turn rate by 50% (a quarter)"

Reverse alpha attack. The longer it goes the faster you shoot, but the slower you become... kinda like "slowly turn into a turret" mode.


Thoughts on the sheer idiocy of my ideas, or more ideas for new attack patterns?
My apology for the slow response, I was too annoyed to properly reply. (Also, sorry for the tipple post.)

Not idiocy. My two cents? The Tactical ability tree needs more diversity, but AP:Esplion or Tau are cool ideas. ^.^ ,but those shouldn't be Attack Patterns. They have their own downside's built in, and I don't think they need to be weighted down by having a shared cool down with all the others.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,221
# 15
06-29-2013, 04:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by resoundingenvoy View Post
...<SNIP>...

My case in other words is that Attack Pattern Omega does more in one slot then any two other abilities combine (though granted not as well as other), and it does it in a place that allows it to do away with trade offs with no 1:1 loss in what was traded for.
Quote:
Originally Posted by resoundingenvoy View Post
...<SNIP>...

To continue from shar487a's example? The above carrier would need _at minimum_ polarize hull, and evasive maneuvers to match. That's two separate power with a minimum execution time of 3seconds. (The server will not allow more then one power to execute in a 1.5 second window, if I recall the engine City Of Heroes had and STO was slapped together from correctly.) Polarize Hull has 45sec cool down, and Evasive Maneuvers a 60second cool down. Neither provide the same utility as a single APO. (Polarize hull matches the duration for 15second, but EV only has a duration of 8seconds.) Nor does that include the damage bonus granted. APO can also be used faster then base 60 second cooldown with the correct DOFF, or with a second APO slotted I believe. (I will admit to not having tried to slot two APO at once.)

As someone is sure to point out, that is a tactical ships entire point. To be tactical, that isn't my problem. I want tactical ships to be tactical. I don't want tactical ships to be tactical and be able to ignore deliberate weakness without losings some of their strength in return!
Attack Pattern Omega has both movement and damage benefits -- this is why it is a high-rank-only (Lt.Cmdr or Commander) tactical skill. Polarize Hull is available as a lowly ensign skill to most ships. Evasive Maneuvers is considerably faster than AP-Omega and does not occupy a skill slot.

Another thing to consider is STO's full space combat meta-game. STO is literally riddled with all sorts of anti-movement crowd control abilties. Polarize Hull only protects against tractor beams -- it does nothing against repulsors or gravity wells. Without universal anti-CC abilities like AP-Omega, STO space combat would simply degenerate into a hold-and-shoot-fest. What would be the point of playing high mobility ships if speed and maneuverability could always be countered by tractor-beams, gravity wells, subsystem engine targetting, graviton pulse, and other movement-disables?

Attack Pattern Omega has remained largely unchanged since STO's initial launch. It could be modified if there is a pressing PVP or PVE based community need. However, you are the first person I am aware of to clamor for such a change, so it is probably safe to say that Cryptic will not change AP-Omega at the risk of upsetting the majority of its loyal customer base.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 214
# 16
06-29-2013, 06:07 AM
Let me see here op NO as NO do you understand? If you want a computer flying your ship, and not you then play swtor.

Secondly tactical's have already taken a damage nerf with going down fighting, which is only usable if your hull is down to 50 percent. Any escort pilot worth his salt know if that happens more then likely your ship is going to go boom.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 432
# 17
06-29-2013, 04:35 PM
Sort funny -as in weird- you should say you don't want to give up AP:O tractor beam immunity because that would disable keep a tactical ship from pressing it's maneuverability advantage.

While we are making that a sticking point? Ask your self why such a thing would be needed.

I dismiss Gravity Well out of hand because of it's cool down and limited firing arc. Remember your counter point this is it allows slow boats to compete, but also remember they have to spend a huge amount of effort lining up a shot in that narrow arc. Which pretty much leave tractor beam as the only really useful direct counter to absolute control of the flow of battle.

This is what make tanks in WII so popular, and did away with most static fortifications. Maneuverability allowed near total dominance of when and where a fight took place.

Your argument are that you'd lose so much of a tactical ships power. I'm left scratching my head and asking "Yes, and?". The maneuverability component of a dedicated escort alone alone is a overwhelming advantage in the right hands.

So, there exists a direct counter. (At least that's why I think tractor beam is there.) Not to be rude, but to my eyes tactical escorts hold a overwhelming advantage because the devs have worked so hard to zero everything else. So, to my eyes the whole counter argument is basically that a CC levels the playing field with showboats, giving them back some control of where and when to fight, and putting you on the same footing they have.

As far as I can read -gaalom, shar487a- you consider this a unholy sin, and I can't figure out why. It's a game, there should be game like 1:1 points and counterpoints. Not a baseline, a overwhelming advantage, and a meager means to sometimes counter but not equal that advantage.

-----

As I said, my problem the AP:O is not that it ignores tractor beams. It's it ignores them in addition to everything else it does. No Lt Cmd or Cmd slot ability does half as much.

Yes, my suggestions are nasty, but they are actually equally nasty to the overall affects AP:O has on a fight.

Edit: Suggestion number 2? The one about putting a user on auto-pilot? That's is the default mode of every over slow boat in the game. They have no effective control over the fight.

Last edited by resoundingenvoy; 06-29-2013 at 04:45 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,268
# 18
06-29-2013, 05:32 PM
If you think a cruiser has no control over a fight, then you really don't know what you're talking about. I've seen plenty of people move rather well using cruisers in PvP, while fighting effectively.

I'll repeat what someone else said: APO is essentially the only viable movement-buffing ability an escort can carry. It's the ONLY skill aside from Polarize Hull that has a 'movement debuff immunity' aspect. This is important for escorts, because a lot of them rely on speed-tanking to survive in combat. APO is a skill that combines a speed boost, immunity/high resistance to movement debuffs for 5-15 seconds, and a damage buff. If you really wanted to nerf APO, the most sensible way to do it would be to nerf the damage buff. Problem there is that the Tactical class just got a nerf to its attack buffs via the Go Down Fighting nerf.

Simply put, there really isn't that much wrong with APO. It's a powerful skill, but not OP. It can be removed via Subnucleonic Beam in PvP, and I think enough movement debuffs being applied would overwhelm the immunity. It's an essential skill for escorts in PvP, and screwing with it would just throw a whole lot of things out of whack.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 432
# 19
06-29-2013, 07:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by timezarg View Post
If you think a cruiser has no control over a fight, then you really don't know what you're talking about. I've seen plenty of people move rather well using cruisers in PvP, while fighting effectively.
Saying cruiser is putting words in my mouth, sorry. Let me be more specific. My poster child example would be a Atrox or Vo'Quv (both of which are mostly science ships). To a lesser degree maybe a Kar'Fi or federation dreadnaught. I didn't mean 'slowboat' as a another word for cruiser. All though it could include cruisers. I meant ships that are slow.

Quote:
I'll repeat what someone else said: APO is essentially the only viable movement-buffing ability an escort can carry. [...]
See there is where the problem starts. You do have to make a choice to keep a tactical ship's maneuverability. However, this choice is almost not a choice because of the total utility of attack pattern omega, and pure tactical ships have the slot to spare.

To counter that, again (), it offers so much for so little and covers a area the ship class is ,I think, meant to be hurting as a tic-for-tat balance of it's innately impressive maneuverability. In a way, it's allowing you to have your cake, eat it, and smile smugly while ever other archetype still has to make hard choices like that.

Edit: STO is a multi-player game. Unlike say, asteroids X-Wing, Wing Commander, or that like? The player should have clear basic weakness to go along with their clear basic strengths. ATO plays to the strengths and lessens weaknesses in a big way, and it's unique in that.

Quote:
Simply put, there really isn't that much wrong with APO. It's a powerful skill, but not OP. It can be removed via Subnucleonic Beam in PvP, and I think enough movement debuffs being applied would overwhelm the immunity. It's an essential skill for escorts in PvP, and screwing with it would just throw a whole lot of things out of whack.
Why, yes, it would upset things, but I don't consider that bad given how easily heavy tactical themes and maneuverability utterly dominate PvP.

Last edited by resoundingenvoy; 06-29-2013 at 07:15 PM.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,221
# 20
06-30-2013, 02:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by resoundingenvoy View Post
...<SNIP>...

-----

As I said, my problem the AP:O is not that it ignores tractor beams. It's it ignores them in addition to everything else it does. No Lt Cmd or Cmd slot ability does half as much.



Edit: Suggestion number 2? The one about putting a user on auto-pilot? That's is the default mode of every over slow boat in the game. They have no effective control over the fight.

I don't know if it is poor English or what, but I have having a very difficult time following your train of thought.

Cruisers are large, lumbering ships with large amounts of hull and shields with usually low DPS numbers due to very high weapon power drain while shooting. These are the dedicated "tanks" or meat-shields of STO, relying on brute healing and shield recovery for survival. Escorts are smaller ships with lower hull and shields levels but superior mobility and very heavy firepower due to Dual-Cannon weaponry. Science ships have the highest shield quantities and rely on exotic abilities to disrupt opponent ships.

Back in Season1 and 2, cruisers used to enjoy much higher resists, mobility, and firepower. The result: God-mode cruisers that were nearly unkillable. Cryptic realized that cruiser builds requiring 3+ opposing ships to take down simply didn't make sense from a game balance perspective. Hence they capped resists with depreciating returns capping around 70% as resist console values approached infinity.

Once the above was done, Sci ships became the dominant force in space combat due their high AoE damage outputs and buggy skill targetting issues (e.g., scramble sensors were not self-clearable since you couldn't target yourself while SS'd). Cryptic once again took notice, and Sci abilities were the next to get hit by the nerf bat.

Fast forward to the present -- Escorts are now the best damage dealers due to their many BOFF tac stations and DHC-capable forward weapon mounts. However, they are vulnerable when stationary due to their low base hulls and shields. Easy Solution - disable their movement via tractor beam, PSW-stun, etc. Since Escorts do not have many Engi or Sci BOFF stations, they will have difficulty countering movement disables.

This is where AP-Omega comes into play -- it is the only tactical ability that removes movement debuffs. However, if AP-Omega did not have its damage and resist buffs, then there would be no point in equipping it on an escort since they must kill their opposing targets quickly due to lack of staying power. AP-Beta and Delta only affect hull resists, so AP-Omega is the only attack pattern that provides a sizable damage boost against shields. Yes, AP-Omega is very powerful, but this is why it requires a Lt.Cmdr or Commander TAC station to use. Combined with its 15 second uptime and base 1 minute cool-down at +9 attack patterns skill, it has prevented PVP from becoming a stop-and-stomp-fest. Yes, there isn't another skill out there like AP-Omega -- perhaps this should be corrected by Cryptic so that Engi and Sci get similar benefits, but it is up to them to step up to the plate.


Quote:
Originally Posted by resoundingenvoy View Post
Yes, my suggestions are nasty, but they are actually equally nasty to the overall affects AP:O has on a fight.
Nasty is an understatement -- it completely ignores all meta-game considerations and regresses STO back to Season1. As a result, your "suggestions" cannot be taken seriously by anyone trying to maintain a competitive space-combat game that has evolved over the last 3 years. Yes, STO space combat is far from being balanced, but it is better than what it used to be.
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