Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 432
# 21
06-30-2013, 03:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shar487a View Post
I don't know if it is poor English or what, but I have having a very difficult time following your train of thought.
English? What is this English you speak of? If I'm having trouble communicating the point, then maybe I should let it go for now and regroup?

The only other way I can think to work is if each ability had a exact measurement for the amount of work it did Attack Pattern Omega would be worth double or more points then any other one ability. (Do you know why jet fighters or bombers are so affective? Do you know why the Germin Blitzkrieg tactic of World War Two was so affective?)

The only other alternative I can think of would be to give slow capital sized ships capital ship hull and weapons sizes.

I will think of another way to say what I want to say and make another thread tomorrow or the the day after. ^.^

Last edited by resoundingenvoy; 06-30-2013 at 03:28 PM.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,202
# 22
06-30-2013, 05:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by resoundingenvoy View Post
English? What is this English you speak of? If I'm having trouble communicating the point, then maybe I should let it go for now and regroup?

The only other way I can think to work is if each ability had a exact measurement for the amount of work it did Attack Pattern Omega would be worth double or more points then any other one ability. (Do you know why jet fighters or bombers are so affective? Do you know why the Germin Blitzkrieg tactic of World War Two was so affective?)

The only other alternative I can think of would be to give slow capital sized ships capital ship hull and weapons sizes.

I will think of another way to say what I want to say and make another thread tomorrow or the the day after. ^.^
Now I see the problem: You are only comparing AP-Omega to other BOFF skills while ignoring the full combat meta-game. Yes, AP-Omega does more, but this is because the ships that primarily use Omega have generally lower combat survivability. Cruiser have inherently higher shields + hull. Sci ships have the largest shield capacities and multiple enemy disruption abilities. Escorts do get higher DPS weapons, but Season1 demonstrated that heavy weapons are not enough to balance escorts against their larger cruiser and science counterparts.

You have stated that you despise AP-Omega because it seems more powerful than all other skills. However, have you considered that cruisers and sci ships are much stronger until speed and BOFF skills are brought into play? Frankly, I do not care to relive season1, but this is exactly what you are asking for by trying to nerf Omega. Given that AP-Omega is the only attack pattern that increases shield damage, your wish to see it nerfed is yours alone.

This thread's title is better worded as "Irrelevant" instead of "Random" given that its conclusions come from a very narrow, incomplete perspective. Sorry if this comes across as harsh, but I don't know how to phrase it any more accurately.
Ensign
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 11
# 23
07-01-2013, 02:31 AM
Gravity Well III - A joke, at best. I have flown my Recluse and Orbweaver from one on multiple occasions.

Tyken's Rift III - Worse joke then GW III.

Scramble Sensors III - It can annoy, but kill? All one needs to do is not fire (blasphemy, I know, but one just has to not hit spacebar for a few moments, and honestly, in that time an escort can fly away and be just fine). I swear, people are going to say, "OMG, but I'll die from 4-7 seconds (average given various fixes for it) of not shooting!". Hate to be the bearer or bad news, but if you were going to die from not firing for five, hell, lets be even more extreme, and say ten, then you were likely going to die anyway, sucks to be you, and that's true of any ship, it affects tacs the least though, as they can run.

Tractor Beam Repulsors III - Wonderful, unless you want to kill your target, yes you may get the rare "kill" from someone popping Polarize Hull or something to ignore the push, but still take the kinetic.

Viral Matrix III - Wonderful, unless they have a human crew, or the doffs that let them shrug it off 40% of the time, pop a battery of some sort, or just use tac team and let it happen, and just shrug it off and fly away.

Warp Plasma III - Pop HE, any level, and it's all good.

Boarding Parties III - Does anything really need to be said? Tyken's rift at least does something, as everyone has tac team, and almost always two copies.

Now then...


That isn't to say there are skills that are useful to Science ships (I primarily speak of science ships, as I have pretty much nil exp with cruisers, but I do include cruiser skills, as people generally insist that it's so easy to capture escorts).

Feedback Pulse III - Wonderful counter attack, but has a massive cooldown, 1 minute 40 seconds.

Viral Matrix III - Why do I have it here too? Because if they, for some stupid reason, have none of the counters, or somehow blew all their perks, then it might actually stop the enemy long enough to hurt them. Still, human crews ftw, so it's a tentative "good" skill.

Reverse Shield Polarity III - Wonderful, great way to get shields back. 2 minute cooldown.


The point of listing all these skills? These are all commander level skills, yet they have 1.5-2x the cooldown duration (in some cases same or smiliar, such as Gravity Well, Tyken's Rift, but those are pretty much useless), and none of the use by comparison.

I saw someone, while reading the entire thread, state that if it didn't give them freedom of movement, they'd have to give up the few science slots they'd get. I have an immediate counter to this: Is it really less grievous to have science ships sacrifice most (in several cases all) of their tactical spaces for tac team, or for engineering ships to do the same?

"Yeah, but tac team is good, and science ships shouldn't do damage!" I wholly agree, science ships shouldn't be spamming doom, but you see, tac team isn't a balanced skill in and of itself. Tac Team I counters Boarding Party III, instantly, completely, and usually without effort as most people run dual tac teams. What's more, the shield distribution is required to have a hope in hell in combat. Don't believe me? Run your ship, an escort even, without it and see how long you last. Bet you that survival will plummet. It's turned into a required skill, punishing non-tactical ships even further in that regard, because without it, they are screwed. "But tactical team is way more useful then polarize hull!" Is it? Stops you from getting stopped by tractors, letting you flee to kill another day.

"But that's why I have APO!" Wonderful, but then there are some issues, because it's already faster then other commander skills, and as has been pointed out to a minor degree, and of actual use.

In short:

The argument that it's a Commander skill falls flat on it's face if pretty much all the other Commander skills either have much longer duration (for similar use), or are pretty much useless.

The argument that it's an unfair burden that tac captains would have to use a science skill is hypocritical, at best, as it's required of everyone to use tac team and burn what little tactical skill slots they get. If I had to make a suggestion to more balance the "team" skills,

Engineering Team - Hull heal, and instant system repairs for the duration (15 seconds).
Tactical Team - Damage boost in all areas, instant counter to boarding parties, and minor defense bonus. (15 seconds)
Science Team - Shield distribution, improve shield emitters for duration (10 seconds).

This seems more in keeping with the ships in question, and helps to balance the skills. One really would have to decide between tac team, science team, or engineering team. Do I want a hull heal, and to keep things like VM, and phasers at bay? Eng Team. Do I want to keep from getting nuked by boarding parties, and want to pump out some nice damage as I run around? Tac team. Do I want to keep my shields going as best I can? Science team.



As to APO itself, if I had to make some suggestions (which I feel one should if you're going to criticize), ditch the hold immunity. Why that of all things? Because as it stands, it gives extra defense in two ways (speed, and natural perk of the skill itself), gives a damage boost, and increases speed akin to Evasive Maneuvers. As it stands now, things go to hell? APO, which trumps all. The alternative is redo other skills so they are more in line.

I fully admit, nerf isn't the only answer, but if that's the case, then a serious buff is in order for other Commander level skills.

Anyway, I've rambled way too much, and I'm sure I've made at least a few people angry, though hopefully not too angry.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,268
# 24
07-01-2013, 05:09 AM
You appear to be approaching the utility of these science skills as if all PvP exists in a 1v1 setting. This is almost never the case. Science powers seem 'weak' because they are not intended to kill someone all by themselves. They're support powers. Gravity Well 3 might not be as powerful as some would like, but it's certainly effective when you throw in a tractor beam from someone else, or warp plasma, or any of the half-a-dozen abilities that would compliment its effects.

If you nerf the hold immunity of Pattern Omega, you'd best come up with some sort of workable replacement. Maybe buffing Polarize Hull into a universal hold immunity.

Lastly, I remind people of this: APO has a total, maximum duration of 15 seconds, and that's for only 4 of its 7 effects. The speed and defense boosts are a mere 5 seconds. Combine that with the long-ish cooldown on APO, the fact that it can be subnuked away, and the suspicion I have that it's not a perfect immunity (applying enough debuffs will overwhelm it, I think). . .I think the claims of overpowered-ness are a little exaggerated. It's certainly not weak or average, but I wouldn't say it's 'too powerful'.
Ensign
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 11
# 25
07-01-2013, 12:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by timezarg View Post
You appear to be approaching the utility of these science skills as if all PvP exists in a 1v1 setting. This is almost never the case. Science powers seem 'weak' because they are not intended to kill someone all by themselves. They're support powers. Gravity Well 3 might not be as powerful as some would like, but it's certainly effective when you throw in a tractor beam from someone else, or warp plasma, or any of the half-a-dozen abilities that would compliment its effects.

If you nerf the hold immunity of Pattern Omega, you'd best come up with some sort of workable replacement. Maybe buffing Polarize Hull into a universal hold immunity.

Lastly, I remind people of this: APO has a total, maximum duration of 15 seconds, and that's for only 4 of its 7 effects. The speed and defense boosts are a mere 5 seconds. Combine that with the long-ish cooldown on APO, the fact that it can be subnuked away, and the suspicion I have that it's not a perfect immunity (applying enough debuffs will overwhelm it, I think). . .I think the claims of overpowered-ness are a little exaggerated. It's certainly not weak or average, but I wouldn't say it's 'too powerful'.
In a 1v1 setting is the best way to demonstrate the issue though. A ship shouldn't be able to routinely destroy the opposing ship, assuming same quality of gear, and skill of the players, yet that is the case. I also have no issue with science ships being skill ships, and support ships, however you hit the nail on the head of what my argument is.

When you have to throw on additional skills just to make one skill useable, it is, in fact, under powered. I am not saying Gravity Well should lock a person down outright, but when I lose minimal speed, at best, in an a carrier even, it's pretty damned weak, and the fact that to make it "effective" you have to use another skill, such as tractor beam, or have someone there to spam something like warp plasma illustrates that point all the more. Why? Because Omega instantly counters those things, even when stacked? Does it do it perfectly as Cryptic claims? I doubt it, but it's certainly does a close enough job to make it seem such. So, assuming the person isn't an idiot, and holds onto APO, then he can instantly counter, presumably, any hold, or at the least, multiple holds.

How are these skills then not weak or underpowered?

As to making Polarize Hull an all hold immunity, that's acceptable, but it arguably already pretty much is. The only effective hold is Tractor Beams, as it stands, because if you're in warp plasma, you're going to pop Hazards due to the movement debuffs, and burn while in it, which instantly counters it.

As to the argument of it's cooldown, it's no more then pretty much all other skills, with few exceptions (primarily in doff use), and shares the same (or similar depending on doffs of each ship) cool down with Gravity Well. Either it's over powered, or they're under powered, because as it stands now, APO is a universal hold break, speed buff, damage buff (admittedly short, and if the hold immunity removed, I'd advocate for increases in durations of damage, speed, and possibly turn to 10-15 seconds), disable immunity. It literally counters everything, no matter what you throw at it, where as every other class has skills that are either a joke, in either cool down, or effect.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,766
# 26
07-01-2013, 12:57 PM
I do not like the ideas to nerf ApO that have been given.
Richard Hamilton (1975-2014)
goodbye good friend. We will see you in the DMZ in the sky oneday, save a shot for us.
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