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Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,490
# 11
07-23-2013, 10:38 AM
Once success is 100% certain, by lowering failure/disaster to 0, any success traits should add to crit instead. That would be logical.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,095
# 12
07-23-2013, 10:59 AM
The following is based on observation and "gut feeling" more than actual hard math/observations. Please keep that in consideration, as I am using "hypothetical" numbers to illustrate my math:

The system seems designed around "risk/reward". For example, take a 5% crit / 50% success / 45% failure mission needing 5 DOffs, having a single crit trait and a single success trait:

Say each "success" trait transfers 8% of the fail chance to success, and crit trait moves 5% from fail to crit...

"Max success (5 success, no crits)" would result in 5/90/5. "Max Crit (5 crit, "wrong class")" would result in 30/50/20.

See the "risk / reward" in the pattern? Max success "almost" assures completion of the mission, with an equal chance of "critical hit" vs "critical fumble". Maxxing critical gives the best chance of scoring the big prize, but gives a much greater chance of failing the mission...

However, having 5 "perfect" DOffs and Crit > success = 30/70/0. Exact same reward as the "high risk" play, but absolutely no failure. In order to keep "risk/reward" going, you need some level of Success > Crit, so that the final results wind up being, say, 10/90/0. Absolutely no risk, however, the odds of the big payout are reduced since you are not risking anything...

To me, that seems to have been Heretic's design. However, and obviously, building around "risk / reward" fails when there should be no risk to begin with. WAD = unintended feature with these missions, which is why the prevailing wisdom is "pick DOffs that give high risk / high reward over 'safe' DOffs", since with risk = 0%, the need for safety is 0...
Well, with the upgrade announcement leaving NX and Connie fans in the dust again, can we restart / revisit the T5 Connie and NX threads - since they will no longer be "truly" endgame ships... (after we get the T5 versions, it'll be time to see them added to the T5U upgrade charts too...
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,514
# 13
07-23-2013, 11:00 AM
Quote:
That would be logical.
On the contrary, THAT, while being an advantage for most doffers would be completely illogical.

Why would something that raises and is supposed to raise the chance of event A, suddenly raise the chance of event B to happen?

The only way your scenario would be logical and make sense would be, if instead of having assignments looking like this (the way they currently are) for example:

Requirement: Science
Critical Success: cunning, resolve
Success: Biologist

they would look like this:

Requirement: Science
Critical Success: Biologist, Cunning, Resolve
Success: Biologist

they way assignments currently are though, it absolutely makes no sense that a success trait would raise crit as well.

Last edited by fraghul2000; 07-23-2013 at 11:09 AM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 214
# 14
07-23-2013, 12:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fraghul2000 View Post
On the contrary, THAT, while being an advantage for most doffers would be completely illogical.

Why would something that raises and is supposed to raise the chance of event A, suddenly raise the chance of event B to happen?
Ok so the opposite is logical? Let me say it with your words (almost):

Why would something that raises and is supposed to raise the chance of event A, suddenly reduce the chance of event B to happen?
Super Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,523
# 15
07-23-2013, 01:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fraghul2000 View Post
they way assignments currently are though, it absolutely makes no sense that a success trait would raise crit as well.
You'd think so, wouldn't you?

But there are assignments out there that are set up exactly like that.
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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,514
# 16
07-23-2013, 02:15 PM
Quote:
But there are assignments out there that are set up exactly like that.
Which one?

Quote:
Why would something that raises and is supposed to raise the chance of event A, suddenly reduce the chance of event B to happen?
...

Because there are only 100% to distribute and because it's being told only to raise the chance of A happening at the expense of every other outcome, which means it's got to take percentages away from B, C and D.

If you, the user, tell the system (by slotting a Biologist over a non-Biologist in the Epohh mission for example) you want to improve your chances of A ("success") above those of B ("critical success"), it'll do just that.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,173
# 17
07-23-2013, 08:02 PM
Hence, we end up with situations where my Biologist is needed to get me the highest possible chance of a shield buff.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,772
# 18
07-26-2013, 08:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fraghul2000 View Post
If you, the user, tell the system (by slotting a Biologist over a non-Biologist in the Epohh mission for example) you want to improve your chances of A ("success") above those of B ("critical success"), it'll do just that.
The extremely stupid situation at the core of this argument is flawed, and is entirely what the complaints are about.

It's not a case of two separate and disparate results - "Result A" and "Result B".
It's "Success" and "Critical Success" - "Result A" and "Result A + Bonus".

The fact that the system treats it as the former instead of the latter is what we're calling illogical and stupid.

It's entirely illogical to have Success reduce Critical Success. It's entirely counter-intuitive to have a situation where the better you are at reducing Failure, the less likely you are to do exceedingly well at your task.

In every situation you will want to succeed (reduce Failure), and in every non-contrived situation you want to get the best results possible (Critical Success).

Quote:
Originally Posted by fraghul2000 View Post
Instigate defection, for example, is an assignment where people who are still missing blue doffs would simply be pissed off if a matching success profession would raise the crit and lower success, as they're aiming for a success and not a crit.
Irrelevant. The point isn't to have Success traits also increase Critical Success, the point is that Success chance shouldn't override Critical Success.

"Don't let them promote you. Don't let them transfer you. Don't let them do anything that takes you off the bridge of that ship, because while you're there... you can make a difference." - James T. Kirk
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 195
# 19
07-26-2013, 08:45 AM
Perhaps the 'logic' is that a character with very different training, yet the right 'personality', may come up with something unique by combining the disciplines - and hence 'critical'. Someone from the discipline will apply known theory, and likely 'succeed', but perhaps not see outside the box.

This is the kind of thinking you get from MBAs all the time. By dint if them not knowing anything, they could get extremely lucky! More likely they'll just make sure they move on to another role before a genuine expert has to be called in.
Republic Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 72
# 20
07-26-2013, 12:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by milandare View Post
Perhaps the 'logic' is that a character with very different training, yet the right 'personality', may come up with something unique by combining the disciplines - and hence 'critical'. Someone from the discipline will apply known theory, and likely 'succeed', but perhaps not see outside the box.
This. Exactly what I was thinking.
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