Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,329
# 11
08-05-2013, 10:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gentlydirking View Post
Power Stealing -
ES - Still very good, max aux and 120ish flow caps will get you 40ish power steal for 25ish seconds. 2x ES II is 30ish power if you want to save that T4 slot for GW III or Tyken's Rift III and will keep the bonus power up almost 100% of the time. Remember the power stolen reduced the targets defences, shield regen, energy damage, etc etc so its as good as EPtX abilities.
Tyken's Rift - The word is its not scaling with flow caps right now. I've not used it since I heard this but then I always prefered GW or EWP over TR even in PVP. So no idea

Shield Stripping -
Tachyon Beam - I always laugh when I read someone maligning this ability on the forums. Slotting it once would be enough for anyone to tell they are lying when they describe its drain. With that said its unlikely you'll need Tachyon Beam in the current PVE meta as NPC shields dont survive against the kind of firepower your getting with current weapons and equipment. FYI i was seeing with 100ish in flow caps and max aux about 600 drain per tick, its all 4 facings as well and thats not to bad really.
Tractor Beam - With a Doff this is possibly a replacement for Tachyon Beam only because of its hold but i'll mention it because a thread on shield stripping isn't complete until someone says Tractor Beam beats the drain of Tachyon Beam. Maybe with 3 purp Doffs it does ^^
Charged Particle Burst - Good in PVP, just very situational, very long cooldown considering its strength.

Feedback Pulse - Still does awesome damage.
Photonic Shockwave - Good in PVP, just situational, long cooldown for effectiveness.

I think thats it for the damage-centric abilities.

So basically stop reading those threads about the doom and gloom of sci. Its fine. Just dont expect to hit a sci power in a vacum and win the internets. You need to force multiplying abilities to really get anything from them.

But anyway, have fun it is just a game after all :p

Woah my fried... Science Captains and their abilities are great but Science powers are not so hot.

Power Drain: Syphon works good to replenish YOUR power but against most enemies the best way to drain power is with lots of Flow Capacitor skill and Polaron Procs. Nothing else is going to drain enemies much especially in PvP where a few points of resistance will all but negate even the strongest drains.

The ultimate power down comes from stacking Polaron Procs, Aceton Assimiltors, Plasmonic Leech, and keeping them in the middle of a Tykens but it takes that level of combined drain to actually accomplish the goal in my experience.

GW can barely hold a Borg Probe and Vs. Players it is an utter laugh fest. Any reasonable player ship can simply waltz out of GW's effective range without a second thought. If you are using target engines on the Borg that will only hit one and even then unless you proc the subsystem it may not be strong enough to actually make GW work on them after EPtE. GW desperately needs a massive boost to the effectiveness of its pull power.


Tachyon Beam is a joke. Why waste time with it? It hardly strips any shields vs. a target with resists even at full power. If you want to strip shields better than Tachyon beam then just... SHOOT the enemy. Your energy weapons and even Torps can easily deal more Shield Damage. Lowering the enemy's power beforehand is even better.

Tractor Beam is still useful and with the DOFF you can make it better than Tachyon Beam if simply because it does more for the cost of the same amount of power slots.

CPB is in the same boat as Tachyon Beam especially in PvE where the amount it strips is really weak. In PvP the best thing about it is that it will keep enemies from cloaking but there are better ways of doing that.

Tractor Repulsors are actually Awesome and I would recommend them far more as they can deal very powerful damage to both Players and NPC's and if you use them correctly they have other great benefits as well. (They attack cloaked ships BTW)

Feedback Pulse... lol... It shares important cooldowns and honestly is not very good for anything that can Hull Tank or anyone who is paying attention to you. Even then it is really only very effective if the enemy is killing you strictly with energy weapons and you are a Tactical Captain that can ramp up its damage significantly. Oh... and it is utterly WORTHLESS in PvE because of how huge enemy HP is and how weak their energy weapons are compared to their massively OP torpedoes.

Shockwave is basically the weak version of Tractor Beam Repulsors. It does stun things which can be handy but that is its only real strength. It does not knock things far enough to be that great, has a long CD, and deals pretty weak damage. You are not likely to kill anything large with it EVER and may even struggle to kill fighters but it will take out mines and high yield torps. TBR's will just do all that far better and can be lethal to other players and even big NPC ships.
Captain
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 5,046
# 12
08-05-2013, 11:22 PM
My feeling about grav well is that it more or less works correctly. Yes there are counters to the hold, such as evasive manuevers and EPtE and a couple of other things, but there are also plenty of counters for the counters, such as subnuke, tractor beam, target subsystem engines, VM, chroniton spread, tractor mines, ... The player who is the most prepared wins, as it should be, and sci has a lot more tools than other classes (esp. tacscort). Really, I kill people with GW plenty, just need to drop a shield facing and be ready with the anti-spam.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,329
# 13
08-06-2013, 12:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ursusmorologus View Post
My feeling about grav well is that it more or less works correctly. Yes there are counters to the hold, such as evasive manuevers and EPtE and a couple of other things, but there are also plenty of counters for the counters, such as subnuke, tractor beam, target subsystem engines, VM, chroniton spread, tractor mines, ... The player who is the most prepared wins, as it should be, and sci has a lot more tools than other classes (esp. tacscort). Really, I kill people with GW plenty, just need to drop a shield facing and be ready with the anti-spam.
What you are not really realizing is even with just the Inertial Dampener skill that gear gives you (not even specific consoles or actual skill points spent) any player ship can fly out of GW from the center without using ANYTHING... Just put throttle to full and casually fly out of it. If they are actually specced into the skill then forget it... Tractor Beams and GW at full power will not even phase them or slow them down at all and Borg Spheres just zip out of it like it was some bad joke.

Target Subsystems Engines is pretty weak so unless you proc you are not getting them to stop. VM is probably one of the only things you mentioned that is very reliable but even then you do not need the GW because VM will stop them and then you can kill them with real firepower.

As for its damage TBR blow it away without any challenge. You attest you kill a lot of folks with GW and I cannot necessarily deny that it may be true but I would say that it is highly unlikely that you ever kill anyone even slightly worthwhile with it. You have to do a lot to make it work for you when if you used the same effort and just could dish out some vicious spike damage from guns or torps you would accomplish the same goal faster, easier, and more often.

I am with the camp who says Sci skills do not need to deal lots of damage they need to be effective Ewar and Crowd Control and as CC GW really fails hard despite having once been a GREAT CC skill if not the best CC skill in the entire game.
Ensign
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 27
# 14
08-06-2013, 02:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
The problem with Sci is simply.

1) Monsters have vastly inflated stats. More shields than players and so on this is why shield stripping is ineffective usually and why that 1,500 dmg a tic GW barely dent's their 200k hulls.

2) 'Boss' Monsters are flat out immune to hard CC. Power drains (and likely shield drains by extension), Stuns, confuses, etc etc will not effect them at all. And if they do it is only 1/100th of the duration or severity.
1. Really? Checking the hull on a bunch of NPC's gave me values within about 5k of what I and my fleeties have on our ships. Also observing the reduction in shield values after hitting an NPC with Tach Beam/CPB leads me to assume shields are no different. And finally hitting NPC's with a Polaron proc and an ESIII turns it into a kitten.

2. No. There was a thread in PVP with some guys disabling the borg queen for 4 minutes. Boss have reduced duration to hard CC's. I guess from my 6.5sec web mine lasting about 3 secs on the scimitar/cubes/etc its a 50% reduction. You just need to not be an escort taking 1 sci ability with no consoles or skills to buff it before you'll see value in them.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,188
# 15
08-06-2013, 03:12 PM
They have some serious rebalancing to do on this front. The drains practically do nothing, they have serious resists on the enemies. You have to stack 3-4 consoles and have MK III versions of the skills on skills like GW3 to even do anything, and even then when you do most of the damage is negated by shields even 1 point of shields is enough to knockout 75% of the damage.

GW and none of the other skills at level 99 are enough to hold enemies in place, they all move around freely even with stacking grav gens on.

Romulans on the other hand have all of the science skills for free from one engine on every ship.

They can create a well that holds enemies in place, confuses, and placates them.
They can summon an extra set of ships.
They can teleport without a console.
They can heal their shields and hull.
They can do a plasma shockwave which is far better than the photonic version.

All of the damaging abilities on Roms are considered exotic damage btw where as all of the standard science shills save for TR FBP are all kinetic damage which is why the standard skills do not benefit from the newest trait they just put into the game that improves exotic damage for science captains in space.

They need a serious redux of the whole system if they want to even come close to being considered balanced right now.
MMO's of 2014 where normal gameplay is considered an exploit and the eastern billing model is celebrated by apologists. smh
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,231
# 16
08-07-2013, 12:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by the1tigglet View Post
All of the damaging abilities on Roms are considered exotic damage btw where as all of the standard science shills save for TR FBP are all kinetic damage which is why the standard skills do not benefit from the newest trait they just put into the game that improves exotic damage for science captains in space.
Is this confirmed? Because it seems like a pretty serious bug to introduce a space trait for science characters that barely affects any science boff ability.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,355
# 17
08-07-2013, 01:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gentlydirking View Post
1. Really? Checking the hull on a bunch of NPC's gave me values within about 5k of what I and my fleeties have on our ships. Also observing the reduction in shield values after hitting an NPC with Tach Beam/CPB leads me to assume shields are no different. And finally hitting NPC's with a Polaron proc and an ESIII turns it into a kitten.

2. No. There was a thread in PVP with some guys disabling the borg queen for 4 minutes. Boss have reduced duration to hard CC's. I guess from my 6.5sec web mine lasting about 3 secs on the scimitar/cubes/etc its a 50% reduction. You just need to not be an escort taking 1 sci ability with no consoles or skills to buff it before you'll see value in them.
1) Which NPCs? Last time I checked an ESTF sphere has around 200k Hull. And yes against standard basic NPCs while sci does work a simple FAW or CRF makes them dead kittens.

2) Link please. I have not seen a 'boss' type mob being effected by hard cc for quite some time, nor drains. I would wager they were using an ability that was bugged and ignoring it's respective resist skill.
http://www.helpscout.net/75-customer...es-statistics/
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 195
# 18
08-07-2013, 03:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jadensecura View Post
Then there's Grav Well, you'll have noticed that everyone who's mentioned it has said to use another control ability to make the control of Grav Well work, and they're pretty much completely right. Player ships can of course fly out of it with ease, but with EPtE the spheres in ISE can ignore it almost entirely as well. The only way to make it actually work is to immobilize your targets in some other way and then give all the credit to the GW, which of course makes it useless as group CC. One more note on it, the damage actually ignores shields entirely and goes straight to the hull, as with TBR and TR, so while it's true that shields have extremely high resistance to kinetic damage, it doesn't matter in this case.
At least the last part is great news! But this misses the point. Gravity Well is not an immobilizer. It is a clumper. You kill engines with something else. I use EWP, Graviton Pulse, Target Subsystem: Engines, Tractor Beam, everything except Chroniton Torpedoes at the moment. Immobilization is also only half a plan. Pulling those stranded ships together, popping at least one (even a small one) leads to cascading warp core breaches. Gravity Well on its own can still clump some things briefly, slow some things briefly, and certainly helps to attract threat, but you still need an end-game. Incidentally I almost never have problems with EPtE spheres since I'm properly built for crowd control.

Nothing is perfect. At my very best I'm still only 2/3 of the DPS of capable escorts. They don't mind if they realise I'm tanking, and sometimes crowd control makes things convenient for them. I really only feel useless if the team has another capable Sci already doing what I do, but with so many Sci builds to choose from that's very rare.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,489
# 19
08-07-2013, 10:19 AM
The reason people laugh at tachyon beam is because tachyon beam is laughable.

600 drain per tick? Congrats. You just spent a boff station and probably multiple console slots to achieve 2/3 of the effect that a single gun mount on a combat ship with full power to guns can achieve. The enemies that have shields strong enough to care about are barely going to be scratched by even the most hyper-specialized tachyon beam build. The only conceivable use of this ability is if you're running a science torpedo boat. Gravity well... A minute-long cooldown to create a well that MIGHT hold an enemy or two if they let you. Charged particle burst, photonic shockwave, scramble sensors, viral matrix, all terrible. Effects are either minor or outright irrelevant next to the cost in time and slots of deploying them.

The problem here is that science can't do its job in PVE. And the reason it can't do its job is because this game has PVP and PVE playing by the same rule set, but player ships and NPC ships are completely different in how they work. And also in quantity.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 658
# 20
08-07-2013, 10:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by milandare View Post
Gravity Well is not an immobilizer. It is a clumper. You kill engines with something else. I use EWP, Graviton Pulse, Target Subsystem: Engines, Tractor Beam, everything except Chroniton Torpedoes at the moment.
But a clumper that doesn't immobilize is useless on its own (unless you set it up to follow the target and immobilize nearby enemies to that target, which isn't what GW does), and EWP and Graviton Pulse aren't available to all scis, while Target Subsystems and Tractor Beam affect only a single target, not the whole group that you're trying to clump. So it's a broken ability, pure and simple. And that's if we accept your premise that GW shouldn't be an immobilizer, and I really don't. If GW is not an immobilizer, then Sci, the primary CC class, has no group immobilizer, while much of the PvE content is focused on preventing enemies from reaching an objective. That's an insane situation which did not exist in this game until the LoR changes.
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