Lt. Commander
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 195
# 21
08-07-2013, 07:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jadensecura View Post
...Sci, the primary CC class, has no group immobilizer, while much of the PvE content is focused on preventing enemies from reaching an objective. That's an insane situation which did not exist in this game until the LoR changes.
That's a fair call. I'm relying on Eng (EWP) and lockbox (GravPulse). I could turn to Tac (Chron torp spreads). Perhaps Sci does need a mob-immob.
Captain
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 3,451
# 22
08-07-2013, 10:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by milandare View Post
That's a fair call. I'm relying on Eng (EWP) and lockbox (GravPulse). I could turn to Tac (Chron torp spreads). Perhaps Sci does need a mob-immob.
does that mean the chroniton proc actually works with spread now?

Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 168
# 23
08-07-2013, 10:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by milandare View Post
That's a fair call. I'm relying on Eng (EWP) and lockbox (GravPulse). I could turn to Tac (Chron torp spreads). Perhaps Sci does need a mob-immob.
Have found that even these are less than effective, case in point being ISE.
I am what would be considered well set up for CC, and generally focus on slowing the sphere swarm down once the gens are gone, no probs there. But once the transformer is gone, they all fly off in all directions, like dogs shot in the arse, no matter what I throw at them.....GW, Grav pulse, EWP, vent theta, in any combination you like, they just seem shrug it off once that transformer is gone.....or have my beer goggles clouded my vision? Anyone else see this happening?
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 948
# 24
08-07-2013, 11:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by coldbeer72 View Post
Have found that even these are less than effective, case in point being ISE.
I am what would be considered well set up for CC, and generally focus on slowing the sphere swarm down once the gens are gone, no probs there. But once the transformer is gone, they all fly off in all directions, like dogs shot in the arse, no matter what I throw at them.....GW, Grav pulse, EWP, vent theta, in any combination you like, they just seem shrug it off once that transformer is gone.....or have my beer goggles clouded my vision? Anyone else see this happening?
Nah, that's pretty much what is happening. The reason is that the Spheres (and "Nanite Probes" that are really just more Spheres with a gennie heal) are tooled out to fight somewhat closer to the way players do. They will run away before you can blow them up, or chase you down if you are moving away, all using Emergency Power to Engines. They've had that power for awhile, but now it's actually worth having for everyone... including the bad guys.

A decent chunk of this is that we don't think of the Science abilities the same way we do our weapons payload. Tons of escort pack 4 or 5 consoles built to maximize their damage type, but it is less common for folks to do the same with their Science console setup.

Unfortunately, the other chunk is still the bigger one... Science abilities are something both players and mobs tend to put decent resists into. The resists don't oppose the enhancing consoles at a 1:1 ratio, though, so those decent resists can often heavily mitigate even a solidly spec'd Science setup. Sadly, at this point I pretty much run a Sciscort setup, and even though spec'd for a Control build I get better overall effectiveness as a striker and rapid-response healer than as a proper Controller.

Of course, I could be (probably am) doing it wrong...
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,462
# 25
08-08-2013, 12:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by breadandcircuses View Post
A decent chunk of this is that we don't think of the Science abilities the same way we do our weapons payload. Tons of escort pack 4 or 5 consoles built to maximize their damage type, but it is less common for folks to do the same with their Science console setup.
Debuffing doesn't win fights. Tanking doesn't win fights. Killing the enemy wins fights. People don't think of science consoles the same way they think of tactical consoles because with a few special exceptions, science doesn't kill anything. Weaponry, i.e. direct firepower, is effective and sustained performance against any kind of enemy. Science abilities, the ones that actually work at all, are momentary and special purpose.

Now, if hyper-specializing into Gravity Well had the same capacity to win that hyper-specializing in cannon weapons did, then people wouldn't look at science consoles as their dump stat.

It's not a problem with "the way we think of it", it's simply a fact of the game's design that firepower is what lets you win and fancy science stuff is merely an occasional side dish to make the firepower taste better.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,036
# 26
08-08-2013, 05:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by coldbeer72 View Post
Have found that even these are less than effective, case in point being ISE.
I am what would be considered well set up for CC, and generally focus on slowing the sphere swarm down once the gens are gone, no probs there. But once the transformer is gone, they all fly off in all directions, like dogs shot in the arse, no matter what I throw at them.....GW, Grav pulse, EWP, vent theta, in any combination you like, they just seem shrug it off once that transformer is gone.....or have my beer goggles clouded my vision? Anyone else see this happening?
Which is why the optimal form of CC is a Tac in a defiant simply scatter volleying and torp spreading the spheres do death before they go 'active' while the rest of the team finishes off the transformer. And yes it is not only possible but quite easy to do.
Captain
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 4,589
# 27
08-08-2013, 08:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skollulfr View Post
does that mean the chroniton proc actually works with spread now?
Good question. They fixed the one-crit-all-crit bug, so in theory they arent binary on|off anymore. And while chroniton chance is still only 33% chance, with torp spread 3 you get 4 projectiles for each target, and if they are clustered togetether there is splash radius effect too, so you are going to get a crit. I dont know if the crit processing applies to the chroniton processing, I want to make a thread talking about this stuff but I dont have it fully sorted in my own head yet. There is another "problem" with chronitons, which is that the duration is affected by graviton gens instead of decompiler, and as we all know half the stuff in this game is bugged broken.

What I have seen in ISE, chroniton spread plus gravwell keeps the probes clumped together and lets gravwell kill them like it used to without the chroniton spread. Hold/pull/slow are cumulative (not sure about sub-types, just speaking in general) so if you add gravwell and the chroniton slow (which is really a slight hold?) then you get a higher total hold than the probes' EPtE can counter. The probes hit EPtE and struggle a bit but then they fall back into it. Gravwell effect is from the center, so you have to combo the pair very rapidly, and before any of the probes have started to muscle out. If you get one that breaks free, hit him with subnuke and his EPtE is gone.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 948
# 28
08-08-2013, 10:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by momaw View Post
It's not a problem with "the way we think of it", it's simply a fact of the game's design that firepower is what lets you win and fancy science stuff is merely an occasional side dish to make the firepower taste better.
True enough, but that component had already been mentioned by several folks earlier on, so I left it out. Sorry about that. Also, that was the lesser of the two points I was trying to make, with the greater being the common and significant resistances to even the debuff abilities.

By which I mean you are exactly right. Science powers are not as effective as simply killing things, since DPS is high enough that debuffing is unnecessary, and crowd control is very quickly becoming far less useful than simply blowing stuff up in all circumstances rather than merely most circumstances. Thus the Sciscort comment at the end back there.

Last edited by breadandcircuses; 08-08-2013 at 10:32 PM.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,329
# 29
08-08-2013, 11:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by momaw View Post
The problem here is that science can't do its job in PVE. And the reason it can't do its job is because this game has PVP and PVE playing by the same rule set, but player ships and NPC ships are completely different in how they work. And also in quantity.
While that is partially true; I find it funny that many of these abilities work even LESS on Player ships than they do on NPC's.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 168
# 30
08-08-2013, 11:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
Which is why the optimal form of CC is a Tac in a defiant simply scatter volleying and torp spreading the spheres do death before they go 'active' while the rest of the team finishes off the transformer. And yes it is not only possible but quite easy to do.
Thats all well and good, but I do not fly an escort(and never will again), I am a Sci captain in a Sci ship, and while not an RPer, am attempting to use the ship for what would be considered its primary purpose. It may not be optimal, but it IS challanging most of the time (primarly because I only PUG ESTFs), unlike flying something that causes the enemy to spontaneously combust just by looking at them.
The Defiant may well be a good ship, but the number of them(and other escorts) that I have saved from the brink of death(sometimes on multiple occasions in a single mission), is growing rapidly. Sure they are probably all beginners(hate the term 'noob'), unlike yourself, but have no problem with that as it keeps things interesting.
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