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Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 258
...to give all cloaking ships battle cloak?

Before you yell it down...consider that plenty of cloak-capable ships have battle cloak now. Tell me if I missed anything...but there aren't a lot of ships that still have normal cloak: Defiant, Gal-X, Negh'var, Vor'cha, Raptor, and apparently the Tal Shiar ships.

It seems like it wouldn't make much difference in overall balance to change their cloak to match the rest of cloaking ships. Not necessarily to facilitate hit and run, but rather to keep them from decloaking prematurely due to stray fire and team abilities.

This would be normal battlecloak rather than enhanced cloak of course, and the Fed ships would still have to equip the cloak console.

Just think about it before you scream "trade-off."
K'eg/T'lol/Dude/Yak
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,268
# 2
08-06-2013, 04:58 PM
All KDF ships except the BoPs and Veteran ship have a normal cloak, that's a lot of ships.

It's the Romulans that have all the battlecloaks.

The issue I have with having all cloak-capable ships having battlecloaks is an issue of balance. Just look at what's going on with all the big Romulan ships. . .due to the higher hull, they're actually able to risk cloaking while under fire and surviving. All it took was a higher base hull.

We don't need to unbalance the basics of the game even further.
tIqIpqu' 'ej nom tIqIp
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 9,094
# 3
08-06-2013, 05:26 PM
~Enhanced Battle Cloak
B'rel Retrofit
Fleet B'rel Retrofit

T'varo Retrofit
Fleet T'varo Retrofit


~Battle Cloak
Hegh'ta
Hoh'SuS
Fleet Hoh'SuS
Fleet Norgh
Peghqu'

Ha'apax
Mirror Ha'apax
Fleet Ha'apax
Ha'nom
Mirror Ha'nom
Fleet Ha'nom
Ha'feh
Mirror Ha'feh
Fleet Ha'feh
D'deridex Retrofit
Fleet D'deridex Retrofit
Dhelan Retrofit
Fleet Dhelan Retrofit
Mogai Retrofit
Fleet Mogai Retrofit
Haakona
Falchion
Scimitar
Tulwar
Dainos



~Cloak
Dreadnought Cruiser
Tactical Escort Retrofit
Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit

Qin
Mirror Qin
Fleet Qin
Somraw Retrofit
Fleet Somraw
Negh'Var Heavy
Fleet Negh'Var
Vor'cha Retrofit
Mirror Vor'cha
Fleet Tor'Kaht
Kamarag Retrofit
Fleet Kamarag
Bortas
Command Bortasqu'
Tactical Bortasqu'
War Bortasqu'
K't'inga Retrofit
Fleet K't'inga Retrofit

Tal Shiar Adapted Battle Cruiser
Tal Shiar Adapted Destroyer


They'd have to adjust the stats of those ~Cloak ships to reflect the ~Battle Cloak. They'd have to retcon the story to explain it. I don't see them doing the retcon and I highly doubt they could balance the stats.
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder
Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethaen, M.Qin - Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 258
# 4
08-06-2013, 05:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
They'd have to adjust the stats of those ~Cloak ships to reflect the ~Battle Cloak. They'd have to retcon the story to explain it. I don't see them doing the retcon and I highly doubt they could balance the stats.
A year ago I would have agreed that they'd need to adjust the stats to reflect the battle cloak, but there are so many new ships now that many of the 'older' ships are becoming obsolete, if they're not already.

As far as the story...Cryptic doesn't seem to care about canon or continuity anyway. Why treat this occasion any differently?
K'eg/T'lol/Dude/Yak
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 9,094
# 5
08-06-2013, 06:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobtheyak View Post
As far as the story...Cryptic doesn't seem to care about canon or continuity anyway. Why treat this occasion any differently?
Cause they just used story as the reason for the Tal Shair boats having a weaker cloak.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobtheyak View Post
A year ago I would have agreed that they'd need to adjust the stats to reflect the battle cloak, but there are so many new ships now that many of the 'older' ships are becoming obsolete, if they're not already.
I'm a big proponent of bringing older ships inline with newer ships - those are sales that Cryptic is potentially missing out on by having such discrepancies for many of them.

200k Dil Ships should be comparable to one another.
MU Ships should be comparable to 200k Dil Ships.
2k Zen Ships should be comparable to one another.
2.5k Zen Ships should be comparable to one another.
Lockbox Ships should be comparable to one another.
800 Lobi Ships should be comparable to one another.
Event Ships should be comparable to one another.
Fleet Ships...well, T1-5...the FSM...the 200k FC...yeah, that's definitely more complicated, meh.

And then with that mix, well - certain of the X Ships should be comparable with certain of the Y Ships.

The hierarchy which may once have been hiding amongst all the Ships is pretty much gone - it's just the latest and greatest for the most part.

With all the complaining about the Romulan boats, can you imagine what it will be like when/if they introduce the Cardassians? What about the Liberated Borg?

Course, that's somewhat mainly a PvP issue, eh? Cause folks can get by in almost whatever ship they want over in PvE. Yes, some ships are massively better - but they're all good enough.
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder
Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethaen, M.Qin - Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,409
# 6
08-06-2013, 07:53 PM
maybe give all ships mask energy sig. then depending on their factionthey get bumped to battle cloak/regular cloak for free?
Quote:
Originally Posted by mancom View Post
Frankly, I think the only sound advice that one can give new players at this time is to stay away from PVP in STO.
Science pvp at its best-http://www.youtube.com/user/matteo716
Do you even Science Bro?
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,923
# 7
08-06-2013, 08:52 PM
klingon ships give up a lot for a crap cloak, and give up a ton for battle cloak. romulans give up nothing for battle cloak, infant their ships have better stats then fed ships.


consider me convinced there should be no cloaks other then battle cloak, and enhanced battle cloak.
______________________________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordlalo View Post
I just wanted to say, I've never seen a more disturbing avatar
the pvp build and help thread
gateway links(should actually work now) -->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,748
# 8
08-06-2013, 08:56 PM
I actually came up with an excellent (IMO) idea in the latest 'Defiant needs a battle cloak' thread.

Each faction would have differences in their cloaks:

Romulans: Would remain unchanged.

Klingons: BoPs would probably get a boost to their stealth effectiveness. All other cloaking Klingon ships would gain all the benefits of a battle cloak EXCEPT being able to cloak under fire. So the turn rate bonus mostly. Also maybe give a boost to normal Klingon cloaks as well.

Federation: They would keep their cloak as a console, and would gain the ability to cloak under fire, and nothing else. No boost to effectiveness, no extra bonuses in cloak (like the turn rate bonus), nothing. Just cloaking under fire, that's it.



That lets everyone have something different. People get what they want, while not totally screwing over anyone else.

Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 9,094
# 9
08-06-2013, 09:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
klingon ships give up a lot for a crap cloak, and give up a ton for battle cloak. romulans give up nothing for battle cloak, infant their ships have better stats then fed ships.
Negh'Var vs. Assault Cruiser

-1 Device Slot
+2 Turn
+DHCs/DCs
-5 Inertia
+Cloak

Qin vs. Patrol

+2000 Hull
-0.07 Shield Mod
-1 Turn
+Cloak

Hegh'ta vs. Patrol

-7000 Hull
-0.1 Shield Mod
-1 Aft Weapon
+5 Turn
-1 BOFF Station
+4 Universal BOFF Stations
+Battle Cloak

Assault Cruiser vs. Patrol

+8000 Hull
+0.1 Shield Mod
-9 Turn
-30 Inertia
-0.05 Impulse Mod
+2 Devices

I'm not sure how one could make the argument that KDF vessels give up a lot for the Cloak nor give up a ton for the Battle Cloak. If anything, it supports years of Fed complaints about KDF vessels.

Romulan boats on the other hand...well...let's look...

Ha'feh vs. Hegh'ta

+7000 Hull
+0.1 Shield Mod
+1 Aft Weapon
+1 BOFF Station
-4 Universal BOFF Stations
-5 Turn
-20 Inertia
Base40 (-10 Power Per Subsystem)
+Singularity Abiltiies
-400 Stealth @ 100 Singularity Charge/5 Pips

That's tough, because one can see where they trade off various things for various thing.

How about this one...

Ha'feh vs. Patrol

-20 Inertia
Base40 (-10 Power Per Bubsystem)
+Singularity Abilities
+Battle Cloak (-400 Stealth @ 100 Singularity Charge/5 Pips)

And then yeah, the WTF really hits you in the face...but then again, don't forget comparing the Qin to the Patrol, eh? One could make the argument that the Patrol deserved a buff based on that.

Then there's this one...

Fleet T'varo vs. Fleet B'rel

+4950 Hull
+0.11 Shield Mod
+1 BOFF Station
-3 Universal BOFF Stations
-5 Turn
-10 Inertia
Base40 (-10 Power Per Bubsystem)
+Singularity Abilities
+Battle Cloak (-400 Stealth @ 100 Singularity Charge/5 Pips)

...and the WTF kind of leaves. Cause you can go through and look at the majority of ships to see that 5 turn = ~1000 hull...B'rel has +5 turn and -4950 hull. Etc, etc, etc...

So all in all, it's more a case of saying that KDF ships were better than Fed ships and now both KDF and Romulan ships are better than Fed ships.

No doubt there are obvious exceptions to this - there are not enough KDF ships to match all of the Fed ships, so there are going to be Fed ships that are better than KDF ships - there's no ship to compare.

But yeah...the folks that should be complaining the most would be the Feds. Course, one could easily make the argument that Cryptic's idea of balancing (that roughly 1 turn = 1000 hull thing for example) is way off...but they're pretty consistent with most of it.

It's like they tried to balance the Rom ships against the KDF ships thinking the KDF ships were already balanced with the Fed ships...and that's how we get that comparison between the Ha'feh and the Patrol... /facepalm
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder
Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethaen, M.Qin - Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 9,094
# 10
08-06-2013, 09:30 PM
Create a baseline T5/RA ship. Literally, baseline - middle of the road on everything. Set values for each item. If you want to boost one item, you have to lower other things to cover the cost of that boosted item. Boost another? Lower something.

Move to VA, give them an additional allotment of "points" that can be spent to improve them.

Etc, etc, etc.

You should end up with at least balanced ships. Beyond that, all the gear - etc - yep, you'd have all the imbalance one's wee heart could enjoy...
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder
Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethaen, M.Qin - Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba
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