Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 292
# 91
09-25-2013, 05:27 PM
Originally Posted by ussenterpisez View Post
Hilbert can u add top 10 utility?

Also how hard wud it be to add player profiles, like win/lose..avg heal ect
Player profiles with stats would be awesome! Great idea. Top 10 for utility would be pretty cool as well.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 158
# 92
09-28-2013, 05:03 AM
I have had a few thoughts about the leaderboards. Note feel free to ignore them if you don?t like them.

I don?t know if you can but I think you should count hull damage and shield damage different with a high percentage of the score coming from hull damage. The reason is because hull damage will get the kills and shield damage is easier to get higher numbers. Also I think hull healing should be a little more because there are more passive shield healing which makes it easier to get.

The base score would be off of damage and healing while the kills and deaths would modify the scores. I made an example to better explain what I am trying to say.

A few other things, I think your top ten are averages so why don?t you just use everyone?s lifetime averages with no minimum plays. Then have a true top ten with people?s highest single game run also with no minimums. Or maybe just the top record so people can see what the highest someone has ever got. Like a Guinness book of galactic records.
I am @allenlabarge in game
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 4,742
# 93
09-28-2013, 06:10 AM
Originally Posted by naz4 View Post
Hilbert, for TD, working better and better bud.
This can't be said enough. I hear your Match up tool is working better and better Hilbert. The effort is super appreciated. Thanks for all your work on this stuff.
Career Officer
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 774
# 94
09-28-2013, 06:51 AM
Balancing should be even easier now. I have added an autocomplete option (for users that have not enabled privacy settings) that will eliminate the need to get everyone's handles a second time.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 597
# 95
09-28-2013, 06:59 AM
Originally Posted by vegie0 View Post
Look I am not sure if this has been said before, but I do not qualify for the Leaderboards, as I am not on Hilbert's Friends list. In fact, he has me on ignore, and routinely tries to taunt me with that fact. Do not know why I should care, but the point I am going for, if it is not obvious enough, is that a list derived by one persons rules, and maintained by one person who is not associated with the development process. The list is in my opinion worthless. As there are some players who are surprisingly good that never really care for the ques. So I personally find the Leaderboard laughable at best. Not due to the fact that I do not appear on it, but due to the fact that his friends are more likely to achieve higher ranks due to his relationship with them.

Just an observation.
Incorrect, I was number 1 after the No BS tourney and I never knew Hilbert then. So that goes out of the window.

Since Cryptic aren't bothered with helping PVP develop, the community has had to do it and Hilbert has stepped in, using his time and expertise to form some kind of leaderboard, albeit limited as the combat log does not show everything.

Perhaps you care to join in and make your own leaderboard? Before being critical of someone's work, if you cannot make a better one or improve it, I sugest you keep your bitterness to yourself.
Now found frequenting MWO short term and then Star Citizen long term. Raged Quit PVP long ago
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 486
# 96
09-28-2013, 07:48 AM
Just put on the Valdore heal console and your stats will go up automagically! No healer prerequisites!
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 597
# 97
09-28-2013, 07:58 AM
Originally Posted by masterkeychnk5 View Post
Just put on the Valdore heal console and your stats will go up automagically! No healer prerequisites!
lolz trollz
Now found frequenting MWO short term and then Star Citizen long term. Raged Quit PVP long ago
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 486
# 98
09-28-2013, 09:15 AM
Originally Posted by g0h4n4 View Post
lolz trollz
Haha that was funny wasnt it.

But in all honesty, the hilbert leaderboard is awesome, but it has big flaws in it at the same time.

Alot of stuff that gets penalized is because its pay2win, and pay2win doesnt automagically means its OP or anything or should be penalized. I know hilberts stance on p2w and how he likes the game to go back to pre free2play, and sure everyone has their opinion on stuff.

But IMO the leaderboard is way too subjective at the moment. Its a great attempt to make something for the pvp community, i just think the balance is far from right atm.

Alot of stuff that IS actually existing in the combatlogs is not even counted in any way shape of form, like the valdore console i mentioned above. I do not personally think it is overpowred, alot of other people do. It can achieve massive passive healing, sometimes as good as the old BFI doffs if it procs right in your favor.

Stuff like TBR is only counted for damage, whereas its a great 'utility' to push people out of a group to get it killed and stop it from getting heals or push it out of the extenders range.

I'm sure its not finsihed yet, but thats exactly what we want to do, give feedback and definately approach this without subjective opinions, especially not from the creator himself.

Just ask yourself this, a full out cheese spam build with EWP almost always on global, theta in between (using the doff to reduce all Exotic **** when using grav well), black hole, AMS, graviton pulse, backstep, nadeon detonator, i cant even think of em all, and topped out in the top 5 of the leaderboard. *scratches head*
I know for one the black hole can be detected because it does damage in the logs afaik, perhaps add some prediction formula like

When using
{ 'black hole console' }
the probability of using other pay2win crap increases, etc. Still hard to do but its probably the best bet.

The current utility detection is flawed too, that simply means spam out Tractor beam etc as much as possible, even if they are totally crappy timed on Polarize hull or omega for 99% of the time.

And the pets, cmon I know you dont like pets, but really? A few fleet credits and some dilithium, my god... Tractor beam pets are way worse then the other stuff around.

Are TB mines penalized too? Since they are like 3 times as strong as the highest specced Bridge officer version.

Last edited by masterkeychnk5; 09-28-2013 at 09:35 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 774
# 99
09-28-2013, 09:57 AM
The algorithm has flaws, no doubt. I think the rating of players within a team is somewhat sensible, I have a different algorithm in internal testing that I feel gives better "in-team" results, but provides worse overall averages. A major issue with the current ranking is that it favours matches with lots of kills in a short timeframe which leads to high scores in pugstomps that are not sufficiently balanced out in the averaging process via the match balance factor. But there is also the thought that I don't want to punish players for playing queue matches and winning.
Another problem is that it's usually better for the score to do a lot of damage and a lot of kills then just a lot of kills in a super efficient low-damage way.

The impact of the style rating is currently toned down, due to the fact that many things like TIF, GravPulse, AMS cannot be detected and it would be easy to game the system and have super annoying stuff and still not get any penalty at all. (Yes, TB mines get penalised.)

The utility rating is problematic in its current form since you can get really high utility scores by simply using as many different sci abilities as possible. Also, as you noted correctly, it currently favours spamming the ability over using it only in decisive moments. I think that this could be improved by taking into account the situation and e.g. giving a bonus to tractor beams on a target that died a couple of seconds later or something like that. The main obstacle here is that coding this detection is not a lot of fun, and so I'm probably not going to do it in the foreseeable future.

I'm not really sure what you are referring to regarding pets. I only put penalties on runabouts, interceptors, drone ships and nimbus pirates (SNB from a pet? really?), which seems like it is in line with your "tractor beam pets" comment...

If someone really wants to attempt to devise a new rating algorithm that works with the currently collected data, I probably could provide a database dump so that one could experiment and maybe find a better ranking system.

Regarding the cheese team at the top of the list: I have already mentioned why style has a low impact at the moment, and other than this highly subjective component, it appears that it was a very successful team in terms of winning matches and that would obviously put it near the top of the list, especially considering that it was used in the queues and that the system currently has a bias towards onesided matches.

(The question here is: Should winners in onesided matches be punished for the fact that their opponents were not good enough, i.e. receive low match scores despite winning decisively, or should such matches only receive lower weights in the averaging process to reduce their impact on the average score?)
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 883
# 100
09-28-2013, 10:38 AM
Here's what I think you need to do.

  1. Add up all the player ratings prior to a match, and if a player does not yet have a rating assign him an average one.
  2. Assign a bonus for the team with the lower rating, and a penalty for the team with the higher rating. Therefore it does not lower your rating as much to lose against better opponents, and it's harder to farm weaker players for rating.
  3. After a certain threshold where one team has an overwhelming rating advance, do not even let the results of that match influence player ratings. For example, if my team is playing against pugs that we are rated 2-3 times higher than, it's possible that even if we win 15-0 we would lose rating because of the penalty. Weighting these kinds of matches would do no benefit to either the losing or winning teams.
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