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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 597
# 101
08-28-2013, 12:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
That's the main draw back...so much of the time is spent - well, not doing anything or tickling. So much...tickling. It can be embarrassing, lol.
But i must say you can't run from TS, but you can from a double BO.

Bring on the Insta Torpage
Now found frequenting MWO short term and then Star Citizen long term. Raged Quit PVP long ago
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 135
# 102
08-28-2013, 01:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssb64 View Post
The only reasonable way there is to fix BO stacking is (imo), instead of the 50 weapon power drain (this drain can be easily fixed with dem with marion, weapon battery, and all other stuff you all might know...) ... ... ... ah yes, instead of the 50 weapon power drain, what about disabling that beam array/dual beam bank who shot the overload for the duration of its firing cycle? (4secs). Oh yes, people can still stack BO, but its not the same
And for torpedo abilities stacking... when firing the high yield or spread, activate a longer cooldown to other torpedos - like, double ? Meaning the user would have to wait 2 seconds after being able to shoot the other high yield / torpedo spread.

Thats only my opinion, dont rage comments on me please...
i agree with this, this system favors builds taht truly specialize with multiple beams. too easy to double tap with one beam, this fix* id agree with (would have no effect on people with 2 beams)
Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 361
# 103
08-29-2013, 09:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssb64 View Post
The only reasonable way there is to fix BO stacking is (imo), instead of the 50 weapon power drain (this drain can be easily fixed with dem with marion, weapon battery, and all other stuff you all might know...) ... ... ... ah yes, instead of the 50 weapon power drain, what about disabling that beam array/dual beam bank who shot the overload for the duration of its firing cycle? (4secs). Oh yes, people can still stack BO, but its not the same
And for torpedo abilities stacking... when firing the high yield or spread, activate a longer cooldown to other torpedos - like, double ? Meaning the user would have to wait 2 seconds after being able to shoot the other high yield / torpedo spread.

Thats only my opinion, dont rage comments on me please...
I think we have here the solution for BO, THY and TS stacking.
it's not the ship or the build, it's the atitude
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,790
# 104
08-29-2013, 10:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssb64 View Post
The only reasonable way there is to fix BO stacking is (imo), instead of the 50 weapon power drain (this drain can be easily fixed with dem with marion, weapon battery, and all other stuff you all might know...) ... ... ... ah yes, instead of the 50 weapon power drain, what about disabling that beam array/dual beam bank who shot the overload for the duration of its firing cycle? (4secs). Oh yes, people can still stack BO, but its not the same
And for torpedo abilities stacking... when firing the high yield or spread, activate a longer cooldown to other torpedos - like, double ? Meaning the user would have to wait 2 seconds after being able to shoot the other high yield / torpedo spread.

Thats only my opinion, dont rage comments on me please...
I admit I haven't been following every post in this thread... but when did torps get dragged into this one. Nothing wrong with torpedo stacking if someone is really loading more then one torp and sitting them both out for 30s to double fire a stacked HY let them... we don't need to gimp torps.

On the overload... yes the -50 is dumb and no longer a good mechanic. At one time it took some skill to offset that's of course no longer the case. Easy fix is not to offline the beam for 4s but energy weapons completely for 2-4s. That fixes the stacking... and causes an actual downside to popping off overloads.
When the messenger comes to appropriate your profits ... kill the messenger.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 101
# 105
08-29-2013, 10:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by antoniosalieri View Post
I admit I haven't been following every post in this thread... but when did torps get dragged into this one. Nothing wrong with torpedo stacking if someone is really loading more then one torp and sitting them both out for 30s to double fire a stacked HY let them... we don't need to gimp torps.

On the overload... yes the -50 is dumb and no longer a good mechanic. At one time it took some skill to offset that's of course no longer the case. Easy fix is not to offline the beam for 4s but energy weapons completely for 2-4s. That fixes the stacking... and causes an actual downside to popping off overloads.
Hmm... disabling the entire weapons subsystem ? Hmm... Considering the BO can miss... IF BO disabled the entire weapons subsystem, the old BO->THY/TS will go away... No, in order to fix BO, yet being a competitive skill when compared to other beam abilities, I think disabling only the beam who shot the overload is more, balanced...

And as for torpedo abilities stacking... yeah, I now agree with ya,its better to leave them ;D what would be made of transphasic torpedo boat builds with higher shared torpedo cooldown when firing HY/TSS ... ?
"Achiever Killers often look to 1v1 duels for proof of their superior play and are frustrated by "rock paper scissor" game mechanics."
That's me !
Captain
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 4,690
# 106
08-29-2013, 10:28 AM
The only reason double-BO "works" for the general case is because of Marion. Its not a problem when Engi uses NI to do it because they arent stacking APA/FOMM/TF on top of it. Tacs stacking all that crap on top of 2x BO is the problem. Marion lets them do it. Marion is the problem.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 107
08-29-2013, 10:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by antoniosalieri View Post
I admit I haven't been following every post in this thread... but when did torps get dragged into this one. Nothing wrong with torpedo stacking if someone is really loading more then one torp and sitting them both out for 30s to double fire a stacked HY let them... we don't need to gimp torps.
I think virus brought it up, but rather than the goal of nerfing torpedoes specifically I think he brought it up for consistency with regards to how some powers do, or do not (or perhaps, should or should not) stack.

The last thing torps need are a nerf, but he has a point on the consistency of mechanics.



Quote:
Originally Posted by antoniosalieri View Post
On the overload... yes the -50 is dumb and no longer a good mechanic. At one time it took some skill to offset that's of course no longer the case. Easy fix is not to offline the beam for 4s but energy weapons completely for 2-4s. That fixes the stacking... and causes an actual downside to popping off overloads.
Well, here I disagree.

The DEM doff was most likely instituted to add functionality to a power that was heavily underused and generally derided - DEM.

The only realistic applications of the DOFF + DEM are to boost BO & BFAW (as cannons gain very little from a reduction in power drain resistance, relatively speaking)

People weren't really running BOs either, how long were 4xDHCs the load of choice of escorts?



So we had DEM step in, improve BO allowing for variation and one that required engineering heavy loads in order to really make it work.

What did this do? Something that hasn't completely made it's way through all of the concrete skulls of this game's playerbase.

Indirectly nerf standard escort loads, and ultimately the JHAS.

JHAS, is no longer "the best ship" for Tacs, even though some still cling to the idea - most Pandas moved on from the JHAS in their top builds as far back as Feb/March.



Some things were direct changes, others were indirect.


Regardless BO is not BO+DEM+DOFF.

BO+DEM+DOFF is its own thing, and is not BO, so nerfing the pants off of BO to turn off all weapons is not really helping or solving anything.

If something needs to be changed, it really shouldn't be BO itself which is the root power that no one was really using in arena matches.



"Easy" to mitigate is a bit of a misnomer, it's "easier" for some ships and not so easy for many others.


The ships that mitigate this the best, are the hybrid destroyers and battle cruisers - not standard escorts. Intentional or not, Warbirds are all designed as hybrids, many of them Engineering heavy.

With battlecloaks.

With massive +crit % & +crtD.

With Ambush bonuses.




Thus, began the QQ.


Last edited by ussultimatum; 08-29-2013 at 10:44 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,790
# 108
08-29-2013, 10:44 AM
Marion isn't the problem... its only one of multiple ways to achieve the same result.

Honestly I have had double tapping builds going back a couple years... mini max ran it nixtux and a handful of other bop players. Of course now you can double tap in ships that don't go boom 2 seconds later... so 1000 other dudes are doing the same.

If we scream its Marion and they fix marion... it won't solve the problem just push the meta somewhere else... so instead of marion you have tacs loading bat doffs and Weapon + Weapon & X battaries and doing the exact same thing we have been doing for a few years now in bops. Or... they start putting a full 9 points in electro with a EPS or 2... lets be honest that -50 power isn't enough anymore... one eps console and electro flow and you have 90% of the power back anyway.

The issue is allowing overload to stack... the First set of STO devs understood it would be a problem and had the Weapon offline mechanic. Now it was buggy and never worked right, that was the main reason it was removed.... it wasn't a balance decision it was just easier to remove it then try to fix it.

We all know taking the weapon that overloaded offline won't really fix it anymore... cause no one sees pressure dmg as anything worthwhile so they just load 2 beams... both beams need to go offline... perhaps 4s is to long... 2-3s might work just as well and be less of a major down side.

One more new option to think about.... Polaron procs reduce the max amount of power you can have... what if they just changed the overload down side to that... change the -50 power... to -50 off your max weapon power setting for 4s.... this would mean you could fire a second overload but at -50 power for 2-4s no matter what doff you had running or how many weapon bats you eat.
When the messenger comes to appropriate your profits ... kill the messenger.
Captain
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 4,690
# 109
08-29-2013, 10:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by antoniosalieri View Post
If we scream its Marion and they fix marion... it won't solve the problem just push the meta somewhere else... so instead of marion you have tacs loading bat doffs and Weapon + Weapon & X battaries and doing the exact same thing we have been doing for a few years now in bops. Or... they start putting a full 9 points in electro with a EPS or 2... lets be honest that -50 power isn't enough anymore... one eps console and electro flow and you have 90% of the power back anyway.
okay, I agree with that
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,790
# 110
08-29-2013, 10:49 AM
One more new option to think about.... Polaron procs reduce the max amount of power you can have... what if they just changed the overload down side to that... change the -50 power... to -50 off your max weapon power setting for 4s.... this would mean you could fire a second overload but at -50 power fo no matter what doff you had running or how many weapon bats you eat.

A new post cause the more I think about it this is likely the best fix I can think of.

It was mentioned as well that people want mechanics to be the same on things.... this would make the overload power draw more like regular weapon draw... locking out 50 power while the overload "cycled" just like a weapon locks up the power it uses.
When the messenger comes to appropriate your profits ... kill the messenger.
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