Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 12,694
# 21
08-16-2013, 03:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nynik View Post
However, I think there could be an unfortunate distinction between humanoid and non-humanoid lifeforms. Speaking from a Christian perspective, if we were created in God's image, then what does a Horta represent? Although sentient, does it have a soul?
Ask 12 people and you might get 12 answers. My answer is that the idea of people being "made in God's image" is referrign to sentience and not their literal appearance. After all, God doesn't have a physical body.
Quote:
Originally Posted by orangeitis View Post
Well religion is pretty well defined actually. Is the 'phiolosophy' using doctrines and tenets in any way? If so, then it's a religion. If not, you're all good. Hope that cleared things up.
Would you characterize the Voth's beliefs as religious?
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Captain
Join Date: Sep 2012
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# 22
08-16-2013, 04:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by markhawkman View Post
Well, science is a matter of observing your surroundings and drawing conclusions based on those observations. But the truth of the matter is that it's easy to misrepresent scientific information, just look at the "Global warming" debate if you don't beleive me. Just because soemone has a "Scientific" reason for something doesn't make them right. Science only works if you collect good data. If you either have insufficient data or flawed data your conclusions are suspect at best. So the idea that science is infallible is bogus.
Yeah science is only as good as the people who wield its power. I think a scientific state would likely be a Fascist regime akin to The Hirogen or the Nazis(Although Hitler was neo Pagan/ Catholic). Men like Dawkins promote heartless evolutionary philosophies that are actually quite scary. After all the genius of Einstein also lead to the atom bomb.

Trek is not explicitly atheist, Picard and Janeway celebrate Christmas and Kirk sides with "Christians' in the episode bread and circuses. The federation ascribes to a code of values that many religious people could find familiar although such values have been bastardized by many faiths, fairness and diplomacy y'know the golden rule.
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Captain
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 3,409
# 23
08-16-2013, 04:38 PM
even the vulcans have a society under the yoke of a system based on dogmatic adherence to some rationally fallacious codified text that tells them how to live.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lincolninspace View Post
Yeah science is only as good as the people who wield its power. I think a scientific state would likely be a Fascist regime akin to The Hirogen or the Nazis(Although Hitler was neo Pagan/ Catholic). Men like Dawkins promote heartless evolutionary philosophies that are actually quite scary. After all the genius of Einstein also lead to the atom bomb.

Trek is not explicitly atheist, Picard and Janeway celebrate Christmas and Kirk sides with "Christians' in the episode bread and circuses. The federation ascribes to a code of values that many religious people could find familiar although such values have been bastardized by many faiths, fairness and diplomacy y'know the golden rule.
it could just as easily be anarchy due to the scientific method seeking to eliminate the irrational.
and without special pleading, appeal to authority, circular reasoning and appeal to tradition, government in the current from we have on earth now, and depicted in sci-fi, would be nothing but a cult.

even your own post is full of manipulative appeals to emotion and ad-hominem strawmen.
t6 cruiser? keep it, i'd rather have aux to dampers 3.
as it turns out, an intrepid would lose a fight with a connie.
and thats canon.
! the power of plot compels you.
Captain
Join Date: Jan 2013
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# 24
08-16-2013, 04:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by markhawkman View Post
Would you characterize the Voth's beliefs as religious?
They do have a central doctrine, so yes. As I understand it, regardless if a doctrine coincides with the happenstances of reality, if followed unquestionably, it is still religious.


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Captain
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,759
# 25
08-16-2013, 04:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skollulfr View Post



it could just as easily be anarchy due to the scientific method seeking to eliminate the irrational.
and without special pleading, appeal to authority, circular reasoning and appeal to tradition, government in the current from we have on earth now, and depicted in sci-fi, would be nothing but a cult.

even your own post is full of manipulative appeals to emotion and ad-hominem strawmen.
The fascist philosophy is that of "survival of the fittest' a state that is constantly warmongering. "even your own post is full of manipulative appeals to emotion and ad-hominem strawmen." - Thats because I am the space pope . Christ in the gospels was an enemy of the religious political system since he saw that it put heavy burdens on the common man, many with a bone to pick with religion would be surprised how much Jesus would have agreed with them. After his death the original spirit of the faith was mixed with dirty politics and became the very thing he spoke against. The medieval church built elaborate cathederals and fought bloody wars funded by the impoverished masses.
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# 26
08-16-2013, 05:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lincolninspace View Post
The fascist philosophy is that of "survival of the fittest' a state that is constantly warmongering. "even your own post is full of manipulative appeals to emotion and ad-hominem strawmen." - Thats because I am the space pope . Christ in the gospels was an enemy of the religious political system since he saw that it put heavy burdens on the common man, many with a bone to pick with religion would be surprised how much Jesus would have agreed with them. After his death the original spirit of the faith was mixed with dirty politics and became the very thing he spoke against. The medieval church built elaborate cathederals and fought bloody wars funded by the impoverished masses.
While possible that's true, most skeptic secular individuals probably just question the biblical claims that Jesus is the son of a deity. I doubt they would have problems with many of Jesus(as a man)' political and philosophical stances.

And if he was really that great of a guy, whether he has divine heritage or not, I'd think that he would probably be sickened by a lot of the nasty, immoral acts that were committed in his name.

@ skollulfr: Cults are secretive by definition though. I doubt today's cultures and practices would be defined as such. Irrational, you bet. A cult? Nah.


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Last edited by orangeitis; 08-16-2013 at 05:09 PM.
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# 27
08-16-2013, 05:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by orangeitis View Post
While possible that's true, most skeptic secular individuals probably just question the biblical claims that Jesus is the son of a deity. I doubt they would have problems with many of Jesus(as a man)' political and philosophical stances.

And if he was really that great of a guy, whether he has divine heritage or not, I'd think that he would probably be sickened by a lot of the nasty, immoral acts that were committed in his name.

@ skollulfr: Cults are secretive by definition though. I doubt today's cultures and practices would be defined as such. Irrational, you bet. A cult? Nah.
Many judge the bible before even reading it for themselves. The medieval church kept it in latin and murdered those who translated it. The bible often speaks out against corruption and can open peoples eyes. A secular stance does not make a person less vulnerable to being fleeced whether they don a robe or a lab coat oppresive bullies can take any belief system and abuse it. A lot of science today has political bias just watch fox news to see what I mean....
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# 28
08-16-2013, 05:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lincolninspace View Post
Yeah science is only as good as the people who wield its power. I think a scientific state would likely be a Fascist regime akin to The Hirogen or the Nazis(Although Hitler was neo Pagan/ Catholic). Men like Dawkins promote heartless evolutionary philosophies that are actually quite scary. After all the genius of Einstein also lead to the atom bomb.
Dawkins' promotion of evolution has nothing to do with being 'heartless' or not. He promotes it as fact, it's true, but as far as I know, he does not believe that 'how we got here' should dictate 'how we should be'.

No matter how much one thinks we evolved from a primitive 'survival of the fittest' behavior, they can still accept that we no longer live as such, and with our evolved capacity for intelligence, reasoning, and empathy brought our society changes in circumstances, needs, and understanding. We empathize, which allows us to acknowledge that hurting other people is wrong.

My point is, 'how we were' has no bearing on 'how we ought to be', and I'd bet my firstborn that Dawkins knows this. =D

Quote:
Originally Posted by lincolninspace View Post
Trek is not explicitly atheist, Picard and Janeway celebrate Christmas and Kirk sides with "Christians' in the episode bread and circuses. The federation ascribes to a code of values that many religious people could find familiar although such values have been bastardized by many faiths, fairness and diplomacy y'know the golden rule.
Fairness and diplomacy are not owned by religion, mind you. Even the most secular of societies could accept those as the best way for individuals to function within their societies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by skollulfr View Post
even the vulcans have a society under the yoke of a system based on dogmatic adherence to some rationally fallacious codified text that tells them how to live.
I see your point here. Vulcans may preach logic, but until they actually demonstrate rationality enough to use logic properly, they are as irrational as other species.

A glaringly obvious example of logic based on a fallacy is in the 2009 Abrams movie, where Spock cites the(granted reused phrase) "If you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains - however improbable - must be the truth." ...which is an argument from ignorance, as it ignores possibilities that they aren't even aware of. Whether or not he hit the nail on the head with it is irrelevant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lincolninspace View Post
Many judge the bible before even reading it for themselves. The medieval church kept it in latin and murdered those who translated it. The bible often speaks out against corruption and can open peoples eyes. A secular stance does not make a person less vulnerable to being fleeced whether they don a robe or a lab coat oppresive bullies can take any belief system and abuse it. A lot of science today has political bias just watch fox news to see what I mean....
True, many people do judge The Bible before they read it. Sadly, that includes Christians - and apparently, an overwhelming number of Christians here in the states. Even as an atheist, I can admit that even if The bible as bad things in it, it has its share of good things too. I just happen to think that we should live by good things because they're good, not because a book tells us to.


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Last edited by orangeitis; 08-16-2013 at 06:00 PM. Reason: Typoville. Population: Me.
Captain
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# 29
08-16-2013, 06:12 PM
I was a little hesitant to post in this thread, because the mods are probably on it like hawks. I will say this, in relation to story-telling and canon.

Star Trek (as influenced by atheist and humanist GR) tends to present a somewhat whiggish interpretation of the "ascent of man" from superstition to an enlightened self-awareness of diversity. Eventually, we'll stand before a "god" himself and ask, "What do you need with a starship???"

In this view of humanity's evolution, when humans discovered that the sun is but a star among many stars, it decentered them from their worldview, or should I say worldsview. Then, after FC, they learned that there is an infinite diversity of peoples, beliefs, and "gods."

The logic, I think, sort of runs like this:

When Europeans discovered the New World, they found lots of people who had been living for centuries without knowing the holy texts that are required for salvation. So, it begs the question, how could "our god" be all-loving and only reveal himself to "our people." What's going on? This is a moment of enlightenment, when humans realize just how subjective are their beliefs.

It's sort of the same story in Star Trek, but you have to add in the Carl Sagan stuff about redemption and revelation through FC. It's bare-bones humanism that sort of ignores how Europeans actually responded to their own FCs with non-Europeans.

So, instead of what seems likely, as far as Earthly missionaries to convert the damned heathens of Vulcan, we get a more humble self-reflection about how arrogant the humans were to assume that they were the center of the universe and the chosen people of a specific god.

I think in GR's mind, there is no contradiction. Understanding the universe is liberating. The petty gods become things of the past, or else we discover that they're simply aliens. Eventually, we'll become gods ourselves, when our potential to ascend to an even higher plane makes us competitors to the Q.

That's my take on Star Trek's view of how FC affects the "primitive" religious beliefs of people.

Last edited by kirksplat; 08-16-2013 at 06:18 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,759
# 30
08-16-2013, 06:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by orangeitis View Post
Dawkins' promotion of evolution has nothing to do with being 'heartless' or not. He promotes it as fact, it's true, but as far as I know, he does not believe that 'how we got here' should dictate 'how we should be'.

No matter how much one thinks we evolved from a primitive 'survival of the fittest' behavior, they can still accept that we no longer live as such, and with our evolved capacity for intelligence, reasoning, and empathy brought our society changes in circumstances, needs, and understanding. We empathize, which allows us to acknowledge that hurting other people is wrong.

My point is, 'how we were' has no bearing on 'how we ought to be', and I'd bet my firstborn that Dawkins knows this. =D

Fairness and diplomacy are not owned by religion, mind you. Even the most secular of societies could accept those as the best way for individuals to function within their societies.

I see your point here. Vulcans may preach logic, but until they actually demonstrate rationality enough to use logic properly, they are as irrational as other species.

A glaringly obvious example of logic based on a fallacy is in the 2009 Abrams movie, where Spock cites the(granted reused phrase) "If you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains - however improbable - must be the truth." ...which is an argument from ignorance, as it ignores possibilities that they aren't even aware of. Whether or not he hit the nail on the head with it is irrelevant.

True, many people do judge The Bible before they read it. Sadly, that includes Christians - and apparently, an overwhelming number of Christians here in the states. Even as an atheist, I can admit that even if The bible as bad things in it, it has its share of good things too. I just happen to think that we should live by good things because they're good, not because a book tells us to.
I once had a school teacher who believed cancer victims should not be allowed to reproduce since it weakened the evolutionary gene pool. This is an example of what is called "social Darwinism" which is being used to promote many disturbing positions.

I agree that finding peace and being good to ones neighbour is not owned by religion but it is still akin to the golden rule. Star trek idealizes mankind in an unrealistic way, it's escapist fiction. to quote scripture: "Man has dominated man to his injury" or the old addage "power corrupts" it is likely impossible to be a politician without getting ones hands dirty or falling into temptation to use you position to benefit yourself first.

- Gotta agree with the Vulcan thing! They take themselves so seriously they cannot see there own flaws.
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