Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 655
# 11
08-20-2013, 02:29 PM
Right, like the Temporal Warfare set from the Lobi store that can only be used on Timeships?

Or the Spiral Wave Disruptors from the Galor?

Or how about the fact that both the Monbosh and S'golth have decently unique BOff seating and their own consoles? Is that not unique enough?

Perhaps you want them to have all of their NPC Powers.

Subspace Jump, Invasive Scan, Cluster Tractor Mines, all while not using console slots?
Constant exposure to the same opinions leads to continual reinforcement of ideas until eventually, any challenge, no matter what form it takes, is going to be met with a disproportionate sense of outrage. Room for reasoned discussion can no longer occur.

Lieutenant
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 33
# 12
08-20-2013, 06:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by baelogventure View Post
Right, like the Temporal Warfare set from the Lobi store that can only be used on Timeships?

Or the Spiral Wave Disruptors from the Galor?

Or how about the fact that both the Monbosh and S'golth have decently unique BOff seating and their own consoles? Is that not unique enough?

Perhaps you want them to have all of their NPC Powers.

Subspace Jump, Invasive Scan, Cluster Tractor Mines, all while not using console slots?
Surely enough, lets use your Temporal science ships as a perfect example:
It has a higher shield mod.
Its has a higher hull strength.
It has more device slots
it has more crew
It has one less turn 15 vs 16 (made up for later with its piece bonus), one less tactical console, and one less weapon fore.
both have unique bridge officer layouts (or not so unique anymore)

To compensate where it lacks, the timeship has sensor analysis, which makes up for its lack in the dps section, subsystem targeting is thrown is as a little bonus. This feature is UNIQUE to any escort.

The three piece set is also unique to the timeship.
Temporal inversion field is only applicable to the the temporal science and the temporal destroyer:

+50% Flight Speed
+100% turn rate (making up again for its 15 turn vs the 16 on the elachi escort *above)
+150% power recharge speed

These powers are unique to time ships only its is not
+25% Flight Speed
+50% Flight Speed
+150% Flight Speed
For other ships, that feature is again, entirely unique and not given at a discount to everyone else.

The temporal backstep and manheim device are again, unique and not replicated elsewhere in game.

If you put these Elachi consoles on most any other ship, scimitar as an example.
Scimitar has:

hanger bay
There is "pets" you get from the Monbosh right there AND you save a console slot.

Thalaron Pulse
This weapon is more powerful at the cost of an additional 5 second delay

The rest is somewhat debatable but the scimitar has a hugely higher hull and gains even more hull from the Elachi lobi console set. What the scimitar lacks in a shield modifier is again also made up with the Elachi console set. The scimitar can equip dual cannons, 5 fore weapons, its slower.. that can go on and on. Its not about ship comparison but the fact that the consoles work better on other ships. The "benefit" of not having the frontal shields go offline is the only power of the two piece ships sets of the monbosh and the escort. This is no benefit, its a non-deficit, two consoles the scimitar can not equip anyway, and can use cloak and its non debilitating thalaron pulse and again its two piece ship console set is rapid maneuvering thrusters, a net benefit, not hindrance removal device. The scimitar gains a power a fairly unique one, whereas the elachi ships gain nothing but make a gimp console power not gimp. In contrast the timeship gains an ability to freeze time by equipping both of its consoles.

The point is there is little unique about the Elachi ship that goes with the Elachi consoles that can not be replicated or bested by using them on a ship of a different class.

The timeship is an example of pure synergy, whereas the Elachi escort loses dps as soon as you start equipping the lobi wave cannon (less dps than a dhc) and falls further behind when you equip the Elachi torpedo. This is not synergistic this is counterproductive.

There is nothing given to the ship that makes up for its shortfalls. The bonus of the 2 piece set + (+structural integrity(console), + shields, + decompiler(2 piece bonus) only fair to make the ship up to standard escort levels, when if same consoles are instead say put on the Andorian escort, you retain a frontal attack (via the Andorian tactical ship console), and have more survivability via its tougher hull, all the while retaining its 5 fore weapon superiority. The lack of "support ships" are made up by the fact you have wing platforms.

The issue is simple, the Elachi consoles are not synergistic with the ship, and are not unique in that they can not be replicated on a similar ship, all the while benefiting more from the Elachi consoles than the Elachi ship they were made for.

In your time ships example:
-The unique ship console powers of tipler and manheim can not be replicated or replaced in the game by another ship.
-The two piece ship set is a net benefit and grants an additional feature. To freeze time.
-Sensor analysis. To make up for its lack of one less fore and one less tactical console of comparable escorts.
-subsystem targeting. Thrown in for a unique feature for an escort class ship.
-The console set is synergistic to the ship making it an all around better ship. A benefit from the 3 piece set, that no other ship receives. These powers are not given to other class ships at half their potency.

The Elachi escort ship is one of the lowest rated and lowest selling (market price) for a new lockbox ship release for a reason, and that is because the set bonus is more geared toward the monbosh than the escort and is a little lacking there as well (torp needs to be 180 deg to match the wave cannon. This also introduces a 180 deg torp to the KDF, which lacks one.

To conclude, the ship needs something, and the consoles benefit almost every other ship better than the ship(s) they were made to complement, therefore the ships themselves need a unique attribute to address this issue.

Other than get reminded constantly how gimp my ship is by other players, I am happy about the looks of the ship and I like the escort but once the looks wear off on me for dps sake i'll sadly have to switch its weapons and consoles to a ship that would fair better with them, and I hate that thought. I am just trying to save the ship from the bottom of the barrel soon to reach mirror ships price escorts and not hear "oh great an Elachi escort" theres goes this mission, everytime I start an stf. Not all players feel this way granted, but some of their comments about the ship, and the Elachi torp and wave cannon are true, a loss of dps. I would like clarification on the elachi weapon 5 second lockout as well as there are comments that Elachi turrets fire more frequently, thus locking you in a 5 second cooldown when you proc, thus stealing the thunder from any stronger weapons such as a dual heavy cannon, this proc cooldown is new an annoying and a bit broken.

Last edited by starakus; 08-20-2013 at 06:10 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 655
# 13
08-20-2013, 06:27 PM
lolwut?

Temporal Warfare set, as in the Chroniton DBB, the Temporal Torpedo, and the Tachyokinetic console, which like the Elachi Lobi set, is NOT unique to those specific ships.

The Mobius has the Manheim, the Wells has the Tipler.

The S'golth has the Wave Cannon, the Monbosh has the support ships.

Problem? There is none. You just want the Elachi ships to be super-ships for some reason.

FYI. The Wells is a SCIENCE VESSEL, and it cannot Equip Dual Cannons.

The MOBIUS is the Escort, and it does not have Sensor Analysis or Subsystem Targeting, and the Tipler and Manheim can be used ONLY on the Mobius and Wells.

The Temporal Warfare set, which I listed above, can be used on ANY ship.
Constant exposure to the same opinions leads to continual reinforcement of ideas until eventually, any challenge, no matter what form it takes, is going to be met with a disproportionate sense of outrage. Room for reasoned discussion can no longer occur.


Last edited by baelogventure; 08-20-2013 at 06:57 PM.
Lieutenant
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 33
# 14
08-20-2013, 10:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by baelogventure View Post
lolwut?

Temporal Warfare set, as in the Chroniton DBB, the Temporal Torpedo, and the Tachyokinetic console, which like the Elachi Lobi set, is NOT unique to those specific ships.
I never said it was, maybe you should read the post.
Quote:
Originally Posted by baelogventure View Post
The Mobius has the Manheim, the Wells has the Tipler.
Thank you for stating the obvious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by baelogventure View Post
The S'golth has the Wave Cannon, the Monbosh has the support ships.
Again thanks for the obvious. Its the Crescent wave cannon console in case your confused. The lobi store also has a wave cannon, the Heavy Crescent Wave Cannon. The latter is the one that is a net dps loss for that slot and is a lobi store item, perhaps this is where you are getting confused.

Quote:
Originally Posted by baelogventure View Post
Problem? There is none. You just want the Elachi ships to be super-ships for some reason.
Problems? There are plenty. I listed them. Perhaps you should read it.
These are far from super ships. Your temporal destroyer in fact is better in every way 33k hull vs 28.5k, more crew, better boff layout as in the universal is a Lt. Commander, all the rest is the same down to the console layout. The only failing is the shield modifier which is 1.03 vs the Elachi 1.3. The fact is the Elachi set benefits the hull of the Mobius Destroyer and the shileds (1.45) of Wells class better than it benefits the ship it is to benefit. In fact the set benefits most other ships more than the Elachi escort and negates the purpose of the Elachi escort all together. Unless you count a 5% increase to haywire proc along with 3 extra haywire spheres. The Wave cannon console and the subspace transceiver of the Monbosh are easily replaced by hanger pets and a ship with a frontal /thalaron pulse/phaser dispersal array/Phaser Spinal Lance, of which the Scimitar has both qualities.

No one wants to see an overpowered ship. I sure don't, but I also don't want a ship that is inferior to almost every other ship with these consoles, the very consoles that are meant to complement this ship. The ship specific consoles of the Elachi are easily replaced, and since there is no special 2 piece set that gives a third "power" instead of ungimping the wave cannon console, it is of no loss to any other ship class since they can not equip the Crescent wave cannon console anyway. An example would be even one of the gimpiest ships (hull and shield wise) like the fleet Norgh retrofit. Even though this set STILL does not bring the fleet norgh retro up to standard escort levels in defense, it does a heck of a lot more overall for the ship than it does the elachi escort in terms of benefit from an overview standpoint. Math wise it is an equal increase, but that is part of the problem equal, non synergistic, and often better on most other ships that the ships it is for. The bioneural infusion circuits console starts to bring some synergy but it is bested for use on a ship with a hull strength or shield modifier that is higher. The cannon and torpedo take it away the only synergy left and that is damage and being an escort, and these reduce the damage potential.
Quote:
Originally Posted by baelogventure View Post
FYI. The Wells is a SCIENCE VESSEL, and it cannot Equip Dual Cannons.
I never stated that the Wells science could equip cannons, although the Temporal Destroyer can in case you did not know. No clue where this comes from. It would be pretty pointless to have subsytem targeting with cannons anyhow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by baelogventure View Post
The MOBIUS is the Escort, and it does not have Sensor Analysis or Subsystem Targeting, and the Tipler and Manheim can be used ONLY on the Mobius and Wells.
I stand corrected as in the Wells being an escort. It is a science ship with escort like turn. The Temporal destroyer also has around 33k hull, tough for an escort. How are the Elachi consoles not more effective on this ship than they are on the ship they were designed around? The hull and shield bonus is not exclusive to Elachi ships.
Quote:
Originally Posted by baelogventure View Post
The Temporal Warfare set, which I listed above, can be used on ANY ship.
If you read the post you would understand what I meant by the three piece set only benefitting the Temporal Science and the Temporal Destroyer. The three piece set for the Elachi console, wave cannon, and torpedo is not exclusive to the Elachi ships and HALF of that power is given to any ship that equips the set, IE: haywire effect,3 spheres,5% chance to proc.

Here is the 3 piece set and perhaps where you are getting confused:
----------------------------Snip-----------------------------
Set 3:
Temporal Inversion Field
(20 max)
Affects Foe
5 Kilometer Sphere
0.5 Sec Activate
3min Recharge

To all enemies within 5.0 KM:
*-200% Flight Speed
*(-400% Flight Speed vs Small Craft)
*-150% Power Recharge Speed

To Self when equipped on Temporal Science Vessel or Temporal Destroyer:
*+50% Flight Speed
*+100% turn rate
*+150% Power Recharge Speed
----------------------------END-----------------------------

As you can see its 3 piece has an entirely new bonus not shared by other ships that equip it.The Elachi ship set gives away half of its special powers to all other ships that equip the set. The two piece ships set is also a wash and offers no benefit or "power" to the set, which can not be equipped on another class ship anyway. So scimitar X is not missing out on any set power and can replace the individual consoles with its own thalaron pulse, get the speed boost from its own unique "power" from its set bonus, and throw on a hanger pet. This is nothing against the scimiatar. Its a fault of the elachi ship for providing little to no incentive to having the 2 ship console and individual ship consoles which are easily replaced with similar ship console sets in the first place. You don't need to negate the shield facing going down power if you cant equip the wave cannon console in the first place, so its a moot point. Again scimitar, thalaron pulse replaces the wave cannon console, the hanger bay replaces the pets of the monosh which also saves you a console slot and since the scimitar is a 3 ship set that is where the 3rd console can go, you can cloak for position, you don't need the elachi shileld facing stays up when you fire benefit because your not using it obviously you cant, and unlike the Elachi two piece set, your three piece set actaually HAS a bonus.

My question to you is how are these consoles not more effective on almost any other ship than they are on the Elachi Escort and how can you justify this ship being unique if it is easily replaced and often bested by using another ships. What is unique about this ship that makes it "so powerful" that your misguided on? This ship is weak, and its only redeeming quality is its 4 console tac slots and ability to equip cannons, which is negated once you start putting the Elachi lobi store items on (minus the bioneural infusion circuits, those are fine). The lobi heavy wave cannon and torpedo built specifically for this from the lobi destroy the synergy and immediatly start to gimp your dps. The wave cannon weapon slot in particular is bested by a mk xii purple dual heavy cannon and by so much that it may be around equal to a dbb if your lucky(without the range).

The torpedo further exacerbates this problem with its high cooldown. This slot would fair better with a quantum or photon torpedo, or a dual heavy cannon which is why I slotted my elachi torpedo in the rear, again sacrificing dps (although lesser than sacrificing a dual heavy cannon) its still a sacrificed and a net dps loss rather than a gain.Yes, its a given that this set going to gimp almost any escort ship and really only benefits a cruiser. Okay then torpedo needs to be adjusted to have the same field of fire as the wave cannon to complete this build for a cruiser set up. The side benefit is this opens up a 180 degree torpedo for the Klingons and the Romulan aligned Klingons available to Feds from a $25 c-store ship, ironically $25 is about how much 200 lobi takes.. The cooldown needs to come down, the disable needs to go up, or the field of fire should be changed to 180 degress, or a combination of some sort to make it viable for most ships. The little wee support ships don't get a lot of action so its cooldown needs to be reduced to around 45 seconds or they need a hull buff.

This is not about overpower this is about balance and feedback from those that own the ships and use them and see their short comings. In particular I love the artwork, (even the fog ) and I want this ship to be a viable ship to fly. Even myself, someone who finds the ship highly desirable, will end up having to replace it to compete, the weapons, consoles and everything the ship has to offer can be stripped and put on almost any other escort and come out ahead in hull and firepower, while the pony tricks of the ships will be replaced with the pony tricks of the new ship I put it on. I will lose no benefit of a two piece ship set because the two piece ship set is specific to the set in the first place -redundant-

Having that in mind I would much rather be able to fly the ship I like and still be able to at least compete and not be outclassed in every aspect. Look at your temporal destroyer or to a larger degree the TEMPORAL SCIENCE, still a very capable, unique, and tough nut to crack and highly desirable to this day, long after its lock box hay day. I am in under 5 days with this Elachi escort and already seeing how easily it is replaced. The ship, weapons, consoles, and lobi store items need tweaking. The ship its self most of all as there is no inherent benefit of the two piece set that is not exclusive to the nerf of shields that the wave cannon console introduces in the first place. In short, can't use the consoles, dont need the bonus anyway. The ship needs and exclusive ship bound trait, or the 2 peace ship set needs a bonus that gives it a power or benefit that would make you want to have this ship.

In fact most of the changes I have suggested do more for the monbosh than the escort and benefit me and the escort little and do little to solve the true dps problem. The proposed subspace jump does little to nothing for the ships dps and is perhaps the wrong kind of change to suggest for what the escort truly needs. I am giving my opinion and direct feedback on using the ship. I suppose I'll go and throw a subspace jumper on my ship from my bank since that will make me SO overpowered in your book. Heck I might even throw the Elachi consoles and a subspace jumper on a bortasqu tactical cruiser then I can lasso jump ships to me and subspace jump behind them and have all the benefits of extra hull and shields on an already beafy ship from these elachi consoles then I should be mega overpowered right?

Its simple I want the ship balanced and viable or I strip it all and throw it on something more useful. Its a pretty ship and I worked hard to get it. I want to use it.

Last edited by starakus; 08-20-2013 at 10:29 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,750
# 15
08-21-2013, 12:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by starakus View Post
If you read the post you would understand what I meant by the three piece set only benefitting the Temporal Science and the Temporal Destroyer.
I'm not in-game right now; but yeah, I'm 100% sure you're not getting full Temporal Inversion on any other ship than the 2 time ships.

The 2-set bonus, extra Chroniton dmg (don't you get extra EPS too?), you may actually get on other ships as well with the Temporal Warfare Set.

EDIT: A built-in subspace jumper, I dunno, feels like a tall order. Even the temporal ships need consoles to make their magic work. Your Elachi ship could indeed use a bit of a buff, though.

Last edited by meimeitoo; 08-21-2013 at 12:24 AM.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 363
# 16
08-21-2013, 07:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by starakus View Post
The sole purpose is to give this ship some kind of unique feature that is inherent to the ship and give some feedback from the community as these things are kept secret and often not as tested as other ships.

As it stands now there is nothing unique accept the pulse cannon console and the support ships.
There's nothing unique except for the 2 unique things, so you want to make it ]more unique by giving it something any other ship can easily have. Logic?

Quote:
Originally Posted by starakus View Post
Your better off slotting all the consoles on a scimtar. All other ships and faction specific consoles and weapons can be put on any ship. In fact if you put them on most any other escort your going to get a hull and shield boost, where as the elachi escort breaks even when having the set on. The point is other than having 6 haywire charges and 10% vs 3 charges and 5%, every console is more effective on a non-elachi ship and this is a 3 piece bonus. This should not be the case. A cruiser with all the consoles only lacks a frontal pulse (which is again available on other ships) and the pets, which also can be replaced with something more effecctive, less squishy, and less of a cooldown, like the aceton assimilator.
Ships are different. Use them differently.

Quote:
Originally Posted by starakus View Post
There is little unique to the ship its self,
Except for all the unique things. (Again, how does adding a common ability solve this?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by starakus View Post
At 3 times the cost of the scimitar pack and the rarity it should offer a bit more that is inherent to the ship, it does not necessarily have to be the sub space jump its to give it something unique that would make you want to use the ship rather putting Elachi weapons, the 3 piece console set, and the universal console on something else that would benefit from increased hull str, increased disable, and on down the line.
The thing that's supposed to make you want to use it:
  1. Its unique appearance
  2. Its unique abilities
  3. Its rarity

Honestly, I think you're missing the point of the ship. It's a unique, end game thing. If you were just looking for a powerful ship and going by more expensive = more powerful "logic", Then you are definitely going to be disappointed.
The lockbox ships are there to get popular/desired none-faction ships into the players hands (well, mostly to make money, but we try not to take about that )
___________________________
The day will not save them. And we own the night.
Lieutenant
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 33
# 17
08-21-2013, 03:24 PM
Okay leaving the ship as is, is a good choice. My request to make it more like elachi ships by giving it subspace jump is no help. It was a lame one and does not address the true issue anyway.

The bottom line is this:
Elachi Subspace tranceiver nees a drastic cooldown reduction.

Two piece Elachi Subspace tranceiver and Crescent wave cannon console 2 piece set needs an additional modifier.

lobi store heavy wave cannon needs a damage increase.

lobi store Elachi torpedo needs a cooldown reduction, disable increase, ore 180 degree modifier.

In the end you are right, its not the ship that is broken, it is the parts that are suppose to go with it that reduce its efficiency rather than supplement it. Its not the ship.

Here is an example:

2 piece set bonus removes the shield facing down penalty as it already does.
2 piece set reduces the cooldown on Elachi Subspace transceiver to 45 seconds.

This makes it equally appealing for the monbosh pilots to aquire the wave cannon console as it is for the elachi escort pilots to obtain the monbosh subspace tranceiver console. Monbosh pilots have no incentive to want the wave cannon console and don't need the bonus if they are not going to equp it anyway. Savvy?

Last edited by starakus; 08-21-2013 at 03:40 PM.
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