Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 1 Its PvP. Someone has to die.
08-22-2013, 07:56 AM
This thread was inspired by a post by adjucatorhawk.

Originally Posted by adjucatorhawk
Yeah, I'm not a fan of this mechanic - it's way too much burst damage in a short window. I'll probably take a look at this soon.
Let's move away from specific powers for a moment, and address the larger issue.

My question is, what amount of time is appropriate foir it to take to kill someone in STO PvP?

This is a game with "magic" style healing, that can heal a player completely.

I think there is a problem with the assumption that killing someone in a short time (say 3 to 5s) is bad in this game, when the reality is that the windows don't get much longer than 15s to begin with against any organized opposition.

It's not PvE.

Attrition damage does not matter - we don't have enough of it to outpace current healing, and it can completely be wiped away.

You can hammer at a big Gate or Cube that will eventually die.

Players can heal themselves, they can heal each other, they have passive abilities that automatically repair damage.

They have resistances that no NPC has, and all of this gets inflated with every new season or major update.

They have an ensign level power that turns 1 shield facing into 4 shield facings for 10s out of every 15s and completely removes all damage debuffs.

So what is an acceptable window for someone to die? 5s? 10s? 15s?

Is it reasonable to require up to 3 subnucs on a single target + 2 escorts worth of APA + damage to score a single kill against good opposition?

Is it within the design that some PvP matches should go 30 minutes? 45 minutes? 60 minutes? Or the legendary matches that ran for 3 hours?

Most recent tournaments now have a cap on a single match of 45 minutes.
That's a relatively short match.

Maybe too much spike in too short of a window is problematic, but is it any more problematic than what brought us to these spike windows in the first place?

Originally Posted by mancom
The core problem is that the inflation in shield resists due to the elite fleet shields has made this instakill approach pretty much the only thing other than multi-SNBing that still works to actually score a point against a somewhat coordinated opponent.

Last edited by ussultimatum; 12-18-2013 at 10:04 AM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 221
# 2
08-22-2013, 08:02 AM
"So what is an acceptable window for someone to die? 5s? 10s? 15s?"

You guys.

Gee wiz you guys just don't get it. It shouldn't be about how long it takes to die. But I guess that's all you guys can think of in ARENA PVP. ARENA PVP that's been around since Quake1. ARENA PVP where the only thing that does matter is how long it takes to kill someone.

The customers and the developers will never get it, they will never improve PVP. They will never understand that the root of the problem IS ARENA PVP.

Here's an equation for you all: Get rid of the ARENA = fix pvp.
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,614
# 3
08-22-2013, 08:03 AM
It's certainly an interesting thing to think about. It all comes down to how skilled the target is at surviving and timing their heals, as well as how effective you are at coordinating your assault to overcome them. There is no time range, since there are way too many variables to try and calculate.

In a 1v1, the time range fluctuates even here. I have been in these sort of matches; I've killed ships within 5 seconds, and I've tanked for over 30 minutes before calling it a stalemate. Trying to place a time frame on data that is all over the board won't accurately represent the whole spectrum.

I was thinking about this "magic" style healing. Perhaps if Cryptic switched over to a system where hull regeneration is very low but damage resists are very high, and balanced it accordingly, subnucs would only be a "softener" and not something that can be chained to prevent an enemy from having any active buff/debuffs.

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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 221
# 4
08-22-2013, 08:09 AM

Ask yourself, "Do I autoresolve?" And why do you autoresolve.

Do you know how incredibly boring this game would be without the big map. IN fact it would be a shadow of it's current self and barely anyone would buy it.
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 18,527
# 5
08-22-2013, 08:10 AM
More Science Fiction...less Fantasy.

It would take care of itself, both in PvP and PvE.
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,351
# 6
08-22-2013, 08:15 AM
Personally, I think it sucks that in tournament (or premade) matches that you hammer away at someone at what seems like forever only to not have them not get hurt at all or get healed back to full in the blink of an eye.

And then you managed to find a break in heal cycles or catch someone off guard and they're gone in 3 seconds flat.
Originally Posted by voporak View Post
PvP'rs: 0, Devs: 1
If any dev guy reads this for whatever reason, let me just ask a question... Is this what you (collectively) wanted? To see your most loyal fans, who were willing to offer help, who were wanting to improve the decency of a basic aspect of the game, completely stamped out? Is this what you wanted?
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 293
# 7
08-22-2013, 08:16 AM
This thread hasn't been nearly as entertaining as I expected it to be. but its young let, i'll be back...
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,742
# 8
08-22-2013, 08:19 AM
The problem is that as you nicely pointed out, attrition damage is absent. Yo-yo healing is stronger then it ever was.

Many solution have been proposed to this. Ask systems, they are the pro's after all.

It doesn't matter if the kill window is 5s 7s or 99s. Burst being the only viable damage kind, thats the problem. I hate to sound like a hippie, but its all connected. While we whine about CC via universal consoles, and ZOMGPEW tac Boffs, the broken trinity is at the heart of all of this.

hawks, post just reconfimed my opinion that systems is quite clueless about pvp or the complete set of skills and abilities they have bestowed onto players.
Joined 06.10
PvP 2010-2011
PvP 2012-2013
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 5,313
# 9
08-22-2013, 08:21 AM
Uh, the lack of pressure damage in PVP is the problem. The whole thing should be about pressure damage. The ridiculous over-spike crap we have now is like headshotting in FPS games--its only alright in a very few highly-controlled instances, because it ruins the game when everybody uses it for everything all the time when nothing else works as well at running up the scoreboard.

Everything should be about different amounts of pressure. Remove peaks and valleys, convert to a model of sustained DPS is winner, and then let the zippy escorts enter and leave the engagement as needed for survival. Right now its all decloak spike escorts who strike as opportunity presents itself, do not bring any other ships.

Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
More Science Fiction...less Fantasy.

It would take care of itself, both in PvP and PvE.
Yeah this would go a long way too, especially the magic hull repairs.
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,742
# 10
08-22-2013, 08:26 AM
As for the dieing part. I wouldn't mind if for pvp at least blowing stuff up would be the crit hit head shot thing, but other then that we disabled ships, drifting in space for awhile.

Not my own idea, but much more trek imv.
Joined 06.10
PvP 2010-2011
PvP 2012-2013

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