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View Poll Results: Which of these societies from ST: Voyager would you most like to encounter in STO?
The Kazon 329 15.89%
The Vidiian 348 16.81%
The Krenim 925 44.69%
The Malon 70 3.38%
The Hierarchy 211 10.19%
The Devore 187 9.03%
Voters: 2070. You may not vote on this poll

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Captain
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 4,614
# 541
08-27-2013, 08:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by apocalypse2001 View Post
I could go on and on, but instead I'll just direct you to the reviews of sfdebris. They're truly awesome.

? link?
http://www.sfdebris.com/

For starters with the science thing colonelmarik spoke of, Voyager was the show that gave us the utter bollocking stupidity of putting a crack in an event horizon. For the uninitiated, the event horizon is the distance from the black hole at which not even light can escape. It is not a physical object but a mathematically defined perimeter, therefore it is utterly impossible to put a hole in it no matter what technobabble you use. As SF Debris puts it in his review of that episode, escaping an event horizon by putting a hole in it is equivalent to saying that you can put a hole in the range you can travel on a tank of gas and therefore go further.

I really freaking prefer Deep Space Nine to Voyager. Character and story development instead of technobabble, overuse of time travel, and ass-raping of the Prime Directive.
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Last edited by starswordc; 08-27-2013 at 08:53 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,569
# 542
08-27-2013, 11:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by apocalypse2001 View Post
----------------------
When you say phenomenological, are you talking Meisner? That's my training although there's a temptation with sci fi to ham it up and directors of a certain age or hammy preference seem prone to considering a Meisner take too subdued or a failure and will often push a trained actor until they wind up doing a parody of Stanislavski.

And I think a lot of strong Stanislavski actors don't hit that fever pitched point of parody you're talking about, that accidentally Brechtian point where the actor seems hyper aware that they're playing a role.

And it also slides that way when scripts get loaded with technobabble.

I've never quite placed what Levar Burton does with technobabble. I never for a second buy his delivery. He sounds like he's narrating it. But his delivery is so pleasant that it's cal ing to listen too. He has a charm that overrides his sometimes dd acting style.

But it doesn't work in Voyager as well or Enterprise. Maybe because you can sense the actors fumbling for sense memory or character motivation when the type of technobabble in the scripts seems almost engineered to combat that approach.

In contrast with DS9, where I could imagine Sisko having a line that, instead of skewing towards technical language, skew poetic in the extreme. "The warp engines are so HOT, you could fry an egg on them. Stop. Hear that SIZZLE." That kind of thing. And the actors there could still go Stanislavski but the scripts catered to it better.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,878
# 543
08-27-2013, 11:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by starswordc View Post
http://www.sfdebris.com/

For starters with the science thing colonelmarik spoke of, Voyager was the show that gave us the utter bollocking stupidity of putting a crack in an event horizon. For the uninitiated, the event horizon is the distance from the black hole at which not even light can escape. It is not a physical object but a mathematically defined perimeter, therefore it is utterly impossible to put a hole in it no matter what technobabble you use. As SF Debris puts it in his review of that episode, escaping an event horizon by putting a hole in it is equivalent to saying that you can put a hole in the range you can travel on a tank of gas and therefore go further.
And even worse, IMO, is the fact that the "crack" was unnecessary. An event horizon exists because beyond that point, the escape velocity of the singularity is greater than the speed of light. You know what's really good at exceeding the speed of light? A frakking Intrepid-class starship! All they needed to do was hit the warp drive, and they'd be out of there...
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Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 793
# 544
08-28-2013, 12:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stoleviathan99 View Post
When you say phenomenological, are you talking Meisner? That's my training although there's a temptation with sci fi to ham it up and directors of a certain age or hammy preference seem prone to considering a Meisner take too subdued or a failure and will often push a trained actor until they wind up doing a parody of Stanislavski.

And I think a lot of strong Stanislavski actors don't hit that fever pitched point of parody you're talking about, that accidentally Brechtian point where the actor seems hyper aware that they're playing a role.

And it also slides that way when scripts get loaded with technobabble.

I've never quite placed what Levar Burton does with technobabble. I never for a second buy his delivery. He sounds like he's narrating it. But his delivery is so pleasant that it's cal ing to listen too. He has a charm that overrides his sometimes dd acting style.

But it doesn't work in Voyager as well or Enterprise. Maybe because you can sense the actors fumbling for sense memory or character motivation when the type of technobabble in the scripts seems almost engineered to combat that approach.

In contrast with DS9, where I could imagine Sisko having a line that, instead of skewing towards technical language, skew poetic in the extreme. "The warp engines are so HOT, you could fry an egg on them. Stop. Hear that SIZZLE." That kind of thing. And the actors there could still go Stanislavski but the scripts catered to it better.
No. The Phenomenological Approach to acting is something completely different. Not many people have the patience or worthiness to do it.
A fraction of what we do has to do with freeing the actor by utilizing the power of the now.

Even though simple explanations don't do it justice, i'll try to give an inkling of what is done.

The important observation

The theater schools neglect the observation and imitation of the observed. So the young tend to "express themselves" without taking into account the stimuli that they receive, but to which they owe their way of expression. It is not enough for the actor to produce poetic forms, he must imprint and process real individuals who are around him and/or belong to the wider environment. For the actor, the whole world changes/morphs, somehow, into theater and, he himself becomes the viewer.

The phenomenological approach to theater, as Brecht understood it and defined it, in order to capture the current theatrical reality and the different perspective, requires new concepts and methods.

Some ideas that are processed in this approach (notice i don't say 'learned' for obvious and non-obvious reasons),

Meanings/ideas such as:

Empathy (instead of interpretation)

diversity/differentiation (instead of identifying [with the character/s])

relationship (between the actor and the role, among the actors, between the actor and the audience).

Shakespearean actors, like Patrick Stewart, are the only ones (in the western world) who are even remotely close to these ideas and approach.

I digress.
What i mentioned above just barely scratches the surface.


i think you are confusing yourself. Or your instructors are quite inept. There is nothing comical about being aware of what is happening. The fact that an actor should be aware of what is going on around him, while the hero is utilizing him as a tool to be seen and heard, serves to allow the actor (as a tool) to ACT UPON what happens, instead of REACT - which is what western actors in NA, and UK wrongly do. And because those actors REACT to what happens, shows that they bias the character, and criticize what the character or characters do or say.

P.S. on your comment about directors: its quite possible to use the Phenomenological Approach while still inputting what the director tells you. Of course as you know the best director is the one that allows the actor to do what he knows instead of giving him stupid acting tips as if the director knows what they are doing.

P.S.S. yeah Levar sounded as if he was doing all the science stuff by rote. very few sci-fi actors can deliver that stuff and make it sound as if they have PROCESSED what they learned instead of sounding as if they are spitting out words like a telegraph.

EDIT 3: also, in the vocal part of our process we use Terlusollogy.

Last edited by apocalypse2001; 08-28-2013 at 01:05 AM. Reason: syntax; punctuation
Ensign
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1
# 545
08-28-2013, 01:02 AM
The devore!! 'cuz Mark Harelik is hawt!
Ensign
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 2
# 546 Primaliron talks Voyager
08-28-2013, 03:42 AM
This thread is now so long forgive me if I repeat ideas already mentioned. They are included for completeness. That being said... incoming wall o' text.

1. Getting to the DQ:

a. My favorite idea is that we essentially reverse the events of "Endgame" (VOY) by taking over parts of the Borg transwarp network. There were six hubs before the episode, and more may have been constructed after. This propels the conflict against the Borg forward within the story while opening the Delta Quadrant up. In my opinion this is best executed as a pre-launch episode where players take over a new Borg conduit, or a new transwarp gate is constructed to stabilize an opening from one of the Alpha Quadrant exits from the network. Either way players can defend new construction or take over old and then perhaps take over relay stations to access the DQ. This will put the Borg on the defensive and escalate the conflict, and both Feds and Klingons will need to gather DQ resources to keep the pressure on. Both factions may arrive together via Task Force Omega cooperation or separately, but the result likely would be the same.

b. In the episode "The Nth Degree" (THG) Barclay encounters an alien probe and temporarily gains the technical knowledge of the Cytherian civilization. While he loses this knowledge by the end of the episode, sensor readings of the event remain and the Cytherians share (somewhat unspecified) knowledge with the Enterprise which Picard muses "will take our scholars decades to examine." While introducing the full capacity to travel halfway across the galaxy immediately is not necessary, knowledge gained from this event may allow a number of advances in travel technology especially since it is not warp-based. (credit to my fleet buddy Josh for reminding me of the Cytherians)

c. In possible conjunction with the above idea or separately the subspace corridors used by the Vaadwaur in the episode "Dragon's Teeth" (VOY) are a consideration. While they may not extend into known space, it is possible. The Vaadwaur may not have explored the entirety of this network, and as a natural phenomena it may have altered over time.

d. The wormhole in "Eye of the Needle" (VOY) was stable and could potentially be tinkered wit. It's exit was in Romulan space which would be accessible to both factions now. Said wormhole was also temporally out of touch at both ends, but that could also be a plot point worthy of an episode.

e. The wormhole in "The Price" (TNG) and "False Profits" (VOY) was destabilized during the latter episode, but may have been re-stabilized (intentionally or naturally) by the current time. Discovery of the natural phenomenon or attempts to tame the wormhole may make a decent story.

f. Similar to my suggestion with the Borg, an Iconian gateway could be utilized. They are already in game and again you can conjoin the stories to some extent, allowing for that increased level of depth.


2. New Factions:

I think the concept of a new faction in the Delta Quadrant is ultimately self-defeating. The Romulans are not a fully separate faction so what species in the DQ merits such a presence? Why make a totally separate and segregated experience? I think it may be far more practical from a design perspective to make the DQ in play for the Federation and Klingons for the following reasons:

a. The Borg conflict needs some movement story-wise. Even if my first idea is not used to access the Delta Quadrant, the fight needs to go to them at some point. This would escalate the conflict in the story and provide payoff to players for previous efforts.

b. The DQ is a fractured place ripe for conquest by the Klingons and thus forcing the Federation to follow suit (via diplomacy of course). Again they will need more resources to bring the fight to the Borg.

c. Since none of the DQ powers really have a deep and multi-racial cast, one would have to be created, and that requires a lot of effort to create a faction that will never have the depth of story that the Federation or Klingons have.

d. Incorporation of DQ races could still include new leveling content, and also provide a simple concept to fuel the story "How do these people end up with whichever side?" Said content may also be available in part to Federation and Klingon players to provide more varied leveling content or simply more episodes to complete.

The above ideas all revolve around convergence. Writing a story about a race that appears in one or two episodes (few appear in more than that) is going to be a lot easier when they interact with the more well-known aspects of the Star Trek franchise. Tying it all together to create a larger plot web will deepen the experience.


3. Various ideas for the inclusion of DQ races in no particular order:

a. Borg: The most powerful force within the DQ for certain. Their threat should loom overhead, but not always be directly mentioned. They can be used to motivate various actions by other races within the story. Shoehorning them in is a mistake to avoid though as they should not be the one and only motivation for all things. Like any "villain" they need to be used delicately.

b. Undine: They may still retain a presence in the DQ and may also be an excellent source of action. They may find themselves conflicted in wanting to use other races against the Borg, but not have those races come out too strong to defeat. Walking that tightrope may lead to interesting plot developments.

c. Vaadwaur: While not used in more than one episode this race has story potential. Their surviving members were last seen fleeing into their underspace and in search of rebuilding their empire. As the scientist Gedrin states, both versions of their history as conquerors and explorers is true, and they may also provide more nuanced options for players whether they become playable or as NPCs.

d. Krenim: As the polls indicate people want them in-game. While a lot of this may be due to the want of a temporal ship that no longer exists in the story, it does not mean they cannot be more than that. Their Chroniton torpedo tech is already in the game and regardless of the temporal ship's erasure from history, it does not mean they are done meddling with temporal technology. Their use of such tech may bnring them into conflict with not only the players but the Tholians and could lead to mirror universe DQ content, which could prove interesting.

e. Talaxians: The Talaxian colony where Neelix ended up may provide a contact point for the federation if they travel to the DQ. They would make excellent candidates for Federation members of course and I suspect that is appealing to a number of players.

f. Vidiians: While the Phage was cured with a rather oblique comment in a later episode "Think Tank" (VOY), This may be an available plot point. The Phage was a very devastating disease that had a huge psychological effect for over two millennia and any cure to the disease likely involved genetic changes to the species which may have had unforseen side effects. The Think Tank liked solving problems but was notoriously amoral and may have failed to mention side effects which may also have provided another interesting problem to solve.

g. Kazon: While they did not work out too well in the show I find them a quite suitable candidate for Klingon conquest. They would have to be "convinced" by conquest I imagine, but would also fit right in once subdued. They also subjugate or raid other species, and may be a central part of Klingon conquest in the DQ if that plot point is used.

h. Voth: The Voth are slaves to doctrine where Voyager leaves off, but they may have undergone cultural changes by this point. Indeed they are possibly ripe for a civil war between fundamentalists and more progressive elements. Progressives may have cause to join the Federation while Fundamentalists remain hostile to all and particularly Humans.

i. Hirogen: Frankly the Hirogen offer little unless they undergo some cultural changes. They do have some similarities to the Klingons in that they may find working with the Empire offers the chance to test their skills and Klingons have great respect for hunting skills. On the other hand they may find Klingons the best prey. Hirogen society is fractured and decentralized so both may be true at the same time.

j. Devore: The Devore have little material to draw on. Their tech level is closer to the Federation but their hatred of telepaths makes them poor candidates to join either faction. They may be capable of prosecuting a crusade against telepaths especially if the Undine are revealed to be working among them. This could make them allies at times and enemies at others.

k. Ocampa: Since they have few if any holdings within the source material they are likely best used as a minor story species. Some may choose to live among the Federation but they may also be conquered by the Klingons, though they would not likely flourish under them. They may find themselves in the crosshairs of the Devore, or entwined in the psychic meddling of the Undine. Those on their home world may serve as a contested point if the Kazon join the Klingons and the Ocampa become Federation allies. Those cared for by Suspiria may have rejoined or at least reconnected with their home world.

l. The Dominion: As a major power within a neighboring quadrant, they too may wish to expand into the DQ. They may be conquering, they may be exploring, or both. The Gamma Quadrant would sensibly have more than just the one wormhole and it is possible they have access to one that goes to the DQ. Caution may be needed though as the Dominion represents in my opinion the most viable power to become another faction. It is also sensible that Borg threaten them as well. Jem'Hadar might make poor drones though unless the Borg can compensate for Ketracel addiction.

m. Last but not least... Liberated DQ Borg/Remnants of Unimatrix Zero: The only vastly multi-racial and potentially in-depth source for a new faction other than the Dominion. Again it could bring old content together with new, and also allow contact with the current factions via the transwarp network. If not included as a faction they certainly would be a result of the Feds and Klingons arriving in the DQ. There are many possibilities here and frankly many of them need not be mentioned, because this is the one potential faction that has significant source material.

EDIT:

n. Hierarchy and Malon: I forgot about them within a post where they appear on a poll, which I think reflects their ranking in most people's memories. The Malon are only known through their waste disposal specialists which while an important part of their existence, doesn't exactly tell us much about the rest of who they are. The Hierarchy is basically a comically overly complicated bureaucracy, It may be amusing to conquer them as Klingons and put them to work scrubbing conduits.

Last edited by primaliron; 08-28-2013 at 01:23 PM.
Ensign
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 2
# 547
08-28-2013, 05:45 AM
A quick survey of the previous 55 pages showed me that many forgot or just did not mentioned the other type of Borg seen in VOY: those who had been liberated from hive and who had been saved by imposing their will on cmdr. Chakotay (episode Unity). Though not enough for a major ally, they could be allys to any fraction in at least 1 or 2 episodes (preferably against the Borg). It could also be a chance to let Chakotay meet with Riley Frazier again...

The Vaadwaur could also be allys - to the Klingons. They could serve the same role the Cardassians filled when they joined the Dominion: secretly building up their own power and keep waiting for a weaknes in the hegemonial power to take them over!

In fact the Devore and the Krenim shared some characteristics: an empire to defend, an arrogant attitude, and a strong will to rule - espacially over minor races. Annorax with his time ship is the exception, but please remember, they have been obliterated from the timeline, so there should be no reason to reintroduce them.

An alternativeto the Krenim, for all of us who love to travel in time, could be the high technology race from the planet with the fast paced time from the episode Blink of an Eye. Let them develop the ability to travel in our time continuum via a time machine. Not only could they be some kind of ally - at least to the Federation - they could provide some highly trained scientist, too. On the other hand their planet could be the base in DQ where invited players could do their own scientific research.

One more empire in the DQ has been overlooked but may be good for a surprise: the insektoids from the episode The Swarm. Their agenda is known and with their technology they could be able to create some problems in space as well as in ground missions.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 13,089
# 548
08-28-2013, 08:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by starswordc View Post
Leave the freaking Krenim alone. I hate time travel on general principles because it always makes my head hurt. There are no exceptions apart from Doctor Who, and then only because the show is goofy enough already that I can accept it basically runs on nonsensoleum.
Well, to me that was the best aspect of the Krenim. They did NOT have the ability to actually travel through time. the weapon ship used various other methods of manipulating the timeline.
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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,304
# 549
08-28-2013, 08:50 AM
Unfortunately, it would seem that the Krenim have this in the bag.

And I say unfortunately because, frankly, they were simply not that interesting. All we really saw of them was ONE crew flying ONE special weapon-ship with the ability to manipulate time. And yes, I realise that we saw other Krenim ships; they were victims of the timeline changes too and were so nondescript that they were quickly forgotten.

And, frankly, I am of the opinion that having Krenim timeline alterting weapon-ship shenanigans in the game would not be a good thing.

Not to mention the fact that I'd wager that a lot of the votes for the Krenim were placed by people who think that they're going to get to fly a Krenim time-weapon ship*

* They might, it's not impossible and for all I know, it's a future lock-box candidate; but there is NO WAY IN HELL that it would be able to do what we saw the 'prototype' in "Year of Hell" do.

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Career Officer
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 2
# 550
08-28-2013, 12:52 PM
ive got a great idea. cant remember the name of the species but they're the evoled dinosaurs from earth. my idea is since Voyager had payed thier visit more of them became curious about earth as word about earth spread. the curious ones "player" can spend the entire leveling period trying to reach earth. and of course one they did end game content can kick in. just my 2 cents
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