Lt. Commander
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 100
# 11
08-28-2013, 10:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by recon2130 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by organicmanfred View Post
Where are the infinity weapons from?
I dont think they are infinity, I think he just didn't set what MK they were. I could be wrong however.

Nice build, I lack some of the equipment in it however I may "Borrow" it for my Oddy cause it looks like a fun build
Eh, a quirk on the build site. I'm looking at the Elite Fleet Weapons possibly, but my Fleet isn't there so I am not sure on the last perks - so the site doesn't recognize what I put, althought that's what I'll probably choose, or close to it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nikephorus View Post
Please don't take offense but this build is just bad. This mix of beams and turrets is terrible. You shouldn't mix multiple beams and turrets together on a build for the simple fact that they use different tactical abilities to enhance their damage. Even if you had "top end weapons and equipment" your dps would be nowhere near where it could be. I see how you got the idea in that you mentioned you also fly an escort. This is a cruiser not an escort it's a totally different beast, but you are trying to fly it like an escort and this is a total failure.

Your turrets are going to be doing laughable damage because you have no cannon rapid fire or scatter volley and your beams won't be doing much damage either because you don't have enough of them to concentrate your fire on a single target. The bread and butter of a Federation cruiser is the beam array broadside.

You have way to many resistance consoles. This is overkill and very inefficient. You are aware that resistance suffers from diminishing returns? The Aquarius destroyer is garbage and the worker bees aren't all that great either.

Your bridge officers are a little better, but as others have said you should switch out science team for Transfer Shield Strength 2. Science team is only really useful to remove SNB and it interferes with Tactical Team. Your argument that you don't use Science Team during combat should tell you something. If you can't use a skill during combat then that skill is not worth a place on your skill bar.

If you have fun with this build that's wonderful, but it is no where near optimal and I'm sorry I wouldn't suggest anyone use it.
Phaser Beams and Phaser Turrets are boosted by Weapons Training, Energy Weapons, Energy Weapons Specialization and the Phaser Relays. They all take advantage of the APB and DEM for a respectable DPS overall, and even better under EPW. Sure, turrets don't use BO, and Beams don't use Rapid Fire - but I can't squeeze that in this very well. Still the damage output is enough to handle plenty.

How can they not be performing as well? Sure, its not the same as max/peak levels under spamming those powers, but it works enough, and that's the point.

On a pure damage aspect I know Cannons + Turrets on Escorts (Specifically Dual and Dual Heavy Cannons) out damage a Beam Boat thanks to RF or CSV. The reason Turrets and Arrays appear lower base damage is cause the damage is less from the turrets - but instead of a narrow 70 degree broadside I have a massive 250 degree forward firing arc, sustaining more damage far longer in fights.

And I will take offense at the total failure part. I have carried pugs with this beast to finish Elite STFs that I know they can't do. I have witnessed the horrors of teams that can't handle Cubes and been thankful I can spike-kill one in under 10 seconds with this if I have to, or be tough enough to tackle a Tac Cube.

Do not call this a failure when I know I can handle most STFs with mediocre teams.

This ship works, and well. And its fun.

The Aquarius Escort is a fun toy, and does plenty for its investment if you can pay attention to how poorly it heals itself - why do you think I have the Sci team? And the Work Bees are a free heal. With that excessive resistance I am able to counter most bleedthrough damage or plasma burns with only the WB and HE and never really worry about it.

Besides, its not about that really, its the wonderful currently 16.9 turn rate I am sporting thanks to Enhanced Engineering and excessive Turn boosted RCS and bonuses. Its no escort, but its perky enough for how I do things.

I know its not an escort. Why do you think I have a 250 degree firing arc instead of a narrow 45 degree cannon arc? Or actually don't have Torpedoes. I did that once. Impressive damage, but its not quite as fun sitting still.

Lastly, if I'm not using a skill on my power bar in combat and can win the fight, that could tell you that the build is working enough that I don't actually need to go overboard. The point of this game should be to enjoy what you fly, and have it work well enough to do the job you need it to do.
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,231
# 12
08-28-2013, 10:48 AM
Why do you have projectile weapon skills specced when you don't use any torpedoes?

You should, IMO, max starship manoeuvres, targeting systems, hull repair, structural integrity and shield emitters. Aside from that, if you wanna fly with DBBs and turrets or what not, good for you. Fly the ship however you want. But at the moment you have skills put in projectile weapons and you don't have any projectile weaponry equipped. So I would suggest you take the skill points from those skills and max the ones I listed above and you'll be as optimised as you can be for this ship build.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,140
# 13
08-28-2013, 11:02 AM
as far as i can read out of your responses most of the important decissions regarding weapons and console choice is based on esthetics rather than min-maxing efficency and firepower.
As said before by many, you probably have no problems in any elite stf, but choosing esthetics over efficency can't be foundation to discuss builds on the forum.
Many have posted the obvious flaws of the build and the multiple points of possible improvement towards more dps and general efficency increase.


one last word on the resi consoles: you say you practicly doubled your hull HP via the resistance boost, but did you consider that you would actually need it that high? hull comes only in affect after your shields are gone, which should never happen anyway?
and did you consider how much possible DPS you lose by stacking practically 4 armor consoles?
If turnrate is such an issue that you stack 2 RCS fleet consoles, but at the same time dismiss the turnrate increase (and increase in firepower) of the chevron sep console due to esthetics, then i'm afraid that there isn't much room for advice from other forum users anyway and this thread is basicaly just another failed attempt of a good tactically oriented oddy build.
Go pro or go home
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 552
# 14
08-28-2013, 03:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by unboundinferno View Post
How can they not be performing as well? Sure, its not the same as max/peak levels under spamming those powers, but it works enough, and that's the point.
Works well enough in your eyes you mean, but when you post a build on the forums you should expect that it will be scrutinized. Everything here is looked at with max/peak in mind and this build isn't anywhere near that.

Quote:
On a pure damage aspect I know Cannons + Turrets on Escorts (Specifically Dual and Dual Heavy Cannons) out damage a Beam Boat thanks to RF or CSV. The reason Turrets and Arrays appear lower base damage is cause the damage is less from the turrets - but instead of a narrow 70 degree broadside I have a massive 250 degree forward firing arc, sustaining more damage far longer in fights.
Your sustaining more damage for longer? What do you base that on? You have no combat logs to show what your damage is and in all honestly I can tell from looking at this build that the dps will not be very impressive at all. Oh and fyi a broadside is 90 degrees not 70. I'm not sure where you got 70 from.

Quote:
This ship works, and well. And its fun.
Power to you. Have fun by all means, but don't post a build on the forums that is sub par and expect that it will not to be scrutinized. I wouldn't want some new player reading this thread and think it's a good idea to run this.

Quote:
The Aquarius Escort is a fun toy, and does plenty for its investment if you can pay attention to how poorly it heals itself - why do you think I have the Sci team? And the Work Bees are a free heal. With that excessive resistance I am able to counter most bleedthrough damage or plasma burns with only the WB and HE and never really worry about it.
Fun toy says it all. It's weak and does low damage and dies easily. It is not worth a console slot.

Quote:
Lastly, if I'm not using a skill on my power bar in combat and can win the fight, that could tell you that the build is working enough that I don't actually need to go overboard. The point of this game should be to enjoy what you fly, and have it work well enough to do the job you need it to do.
I agree that this is a game and you should enjoy what you fly, but as I already pointed out as have others this build isn't very good and I can't recommend people use it. I'm sorry that you are offended, but this is just a really bad build.


I don't always play Star Trek Online, but when I do, I'm grinding Argala.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 100
# 15
08-28-2013, 08:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stofsk View Post
Why do you have projectile weapon skills specced when you don't use any torpedoes?

You should, IMO, max starship manoeuvres, targeting systems, hull repair, structural integrity and shield emitters. Aside from that, if you wanna fly with DBBs and turrets or what not, good for you. Fly the ship however you want. But at the moment you have skills put in projectile weapons and you don't have any projectile weaponry equipped. So I would suggest you take the skill points from those skills and max the ones I listed above and you'll be as optimised as you can be for this ship build.
Read above. Its not the only ship I fly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by baudl View Post
as far as i can read out of your responses most of the important decissions regarding weapons and console choice is based on esthetics rather than min-maxing efficency and firepower.
As said before by many, you probably have no problems in any elite stf, but choosing esthetics over efficency can't be foundation to discuss builds on the forum.
Many have posted the obvious flaws of the build and the multiple points of possible improvement towards more dps and general efficency increase.


one last word on the resi consoles: you say you practicly doubled your hull HP via the resistance boost, but did you consider that you would actually need it that high? hull comes only in affect after your shields are gone, which should never happen anyway?
and did you consider how much possible DPS you lose by stacking practically 4 armor consoles?
If turnrate is such an issue that you stack 2 RCS fleet consoles, but at the same time dismiss the turnrate increase (and increase in firepower) of the chevron sep console due to esthetics, then i'm afraid that there isn't much room for advice from other forum users anyway and this thread is basicaly just another failed attempt of a good tactically oriented oddy build.
I am amazed by this. Its no wonder these forums are dead in comparison to just about anything else.

There is absolutely no grasp on how much damage you need and instead everything is all in or worthless. Its a shame, honestly.

If you'd want to say that, then you'd never survive a stray hit when you don't have a chance. I take it then your response is to suck up the "death" you suffer and respawn instead of trying to actually see how you can survive. I would much rather continue fighting than die because I don't have that extra boost when I can't account for it.

Sure, some things are impossibel to stop - high yield plasmas from a Borg Cube or the lances of death for example - but that can't be a reason to ignore the time your powers could be down and you don't have a say in lack of shields.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nikephorus View Post
Works well enough in your eyes you mean, but when you post a build on the forums you should expect that it will be scrutinized. Everything here is looked at with max/peak in mind and this build isn't anywhere near that.
I expected.. I dunno, maybe a bit more open minded-ness to it all?

Just because a build isn't maxed doesn't mean you can't come up with something "unconventional" I guess in the eyes of the forum people that could fill the role to make the ship enjoyable.

There is that difference, and honestly, it needs to be out here more than that all in or nothing attitude.


Quote:
Originally Posted by nikephorus View Post
Your sustaining more damage for longer? What do you base that on? You have no combat logs to show what your damage is and in all honestly I can tell from looking at this build that the dps will not be very impressive at all. Oh and fyi a broadside is 90 degrees not 70. I'm not sure where you got 70 from.
360 degree arc - 250 degree array - the overalp from 180 degrees is 70 degrees. 180 degrees is broadside straight out, the 250 degree arc only goes 70 degrees on that band. Its simple math. We aren't flying 270 degree beam arrays for that imaginary 90 degree arc.

Dual Cannons have a 45 degree forward sweetspot.
This puts broadsides in a 70 degree arc.
Dual beam Banks and Torpedoes are 90 degrees.

Its just easier to turn broadside on a moving target to keep it in line than it is to get that 45 or 90 degree forward arc around. I on the other hand am flying a 250 degree firing arc that keeps the sustained damage up.

At some point when it doesn't feel like work or pulling teeth getting a point across on a forum I'll get combat logs and see how well the damage adds up. Or some entrepenuring person can go out on a limb and really try and put effort on it and see how it goes, though most likely they don't fly like me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by nikephorus View Post
Power to you. Have fun by all means, but don't post a build on the forums that is sub par and expect that it will not to be scrutinized. I wouldn't want some new player reading this thread and think it's a good idea to run this.
And I am tellingg you figure out where that bar of expectation should be better. Its far from 'sub-par' on the aspect of performing in most PUG Elite STFs, and that to me is adequate. It sounds more like you all need to grasp what the difference is between sufficient and peak performance, and where you ought to see enough is.


Quote:
Originally Posted by nikephorus View Post
Fun toy says it all. It's weak and does low damage and dies easily. It is not worth a console slot.
Same can be said about half of the other suggestions of replacements. A power that's used every 3 or 4 minutes doesn't compare much differently than that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by nikephorus View Post
I agree that this is a game and you should enjoy what you fly, but as I already pointed out as have others this build isn't very good and I can't recommend people use it. I'm sorry that you are offended, but this is just a really bad build.
I can't take your sorry as any part of sincerely done. It sounds more like you can't define what good is to begin with.

And no, I'm not sorry for being rude here - it needs to be said and you need to get it.

The difference between sufficient to do its job and imaginary peak performance for a few seconds is quite a gap. Especially when my sufficient for its job is bounds above when your not doing your best.
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,231
# 16
08-28-2013, 10:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by unboundinferno View Post
Read above. Its not the only ship I fly.
My point still stands. You are specced into projectile weapons and your tac oddy build doesn't employ them. Either spec out or equip a torpedo. Or fly the other ship/s permanently. You're basically specced into something you don't even use with this ship, and that's the problem.

This thread is about a ship build, right? As such you've basically asked others to take a look and scrutinise your build, and to comment. That your build works for you isn't really the issue; lots of things can work in PVE, to the absurd point where guys have completed eSTFs in shuttles or lower tier starships.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 100
# 17
08-28-2013, 11:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stofsk View Post
My point still stands. You are specced into projectile weapons and your tac oddy build doesn't employ them. Either spec out or equip a torpedo. Or fly the other ship/s permanently. You're basically specced into something you don't even use with this ship, and that's the problem.

This thread is about a ship build, right? As such you've basically asked others to take a look and scrutinise your build, and to comment. That your build works for you isn't really the issue; lots of things can work in PVE, to the absurd point where guys have completed eSTFs in shuttles or lower tier starships.
Fair enough. Lately I have been flying the Oddy more (really wish my Aquarius Bridge was on my Escort tho) but I am too cheap maybe to spec out?

Sometime maybe.

But maybe not. My primary alternate currently is a Fleet Heavy Escort Carrier set up as a Cannon/Torpedo boat with a pair of Photon Torpedoes and two Purple Torp recharge DOFFs. That skill gets plenty of use when I use that one.

EDITED MY MAIN BUILD AS WELL: Due to popular forum hollering, I decided to shift the HE I and ST II to my alternate, tougher setup of TSS I and HE II. Also noticed an error - I have DEM I instead of Aux2Strut I. My bad. I hope that wasn't a cause of some misconceptions, but from what I gathered already I am assuming that won't help my arguments here having DEM on a 30 second shift cyclce.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 552
# 18
08-29-2013, 07:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by unboundinferno View Post
I can't take your sorry as any part of sincerely done. It sounds more like you can't define what good is to begin with.

And no, I'm not sorry for being rude here - it needs to be said and you need to get it.

The difference between sufficient to do its job and imaginary peak performance for a few seconds is quite a gap. Especially when my sufficient for its job is bounds above when your not doing your best.
There is no imaginary peak performance there is the constant improvement of build based on new weapons/gear/duty officers that are released as well as skill changes that are implemented by cryptic.

I'm not sure why would you say I can't define what good is. I, and others, have pointed out several flaws in your build, but rather then listen to the constructive criticism you've chosen to defend your bad build. I'll go over everything this time piece by piece this time since perhaps I was being vague in my earlier posts.

Will start with your bridge officer layout:

LtCmd Uni (Tac): TT1, AP:B1, B:O3
Lt Tac: TT1, AP:B1
Cmd Eng: EptS1, DEM1, EptW3, DEM3
En Uni (Eng): EptS1
Lt Sci: TSS1, HE2

First off cruisers suffer from a lack of tactical stations. The Odyssey luckily has a couple universals to alleviate that problem. You've chosen the offensive route and used the LtCmd Uni as a tac (which I probably would as well). No problem with the skills on that officer. The Lt Tac on the other hand would be better if you switched out your second copy of TT1 with B:FaW1 so that you can take care of spam, spread AP:B1 around for your team, and knock down high yield torpedoes. This gives you more tactical options and that is always a good thing. Of course to do this you will need to get two purple Conn duty officers with TT cool down (well worth it tho).

Your engineering stations are a mess. You've got two copies of EptS1 which is great for defense but only a single copy of EptW3. You would do a lot more damage if you had two copies of each or a single copy of each with Damage Control Engineers to reduce the recharge time of your EptX abilities.

Cmd Eng: EpTW1, RSP1, Aux2SIF, DEM3/EWP3
En Uni (Eng): EpTS1

The above with three purple Damage Control Engineers will let you rotate EptW1 and EptS1 and have them both up 100% of the time maximizing both your ship defensive and offensive power.

I'd personally switch the Lt Sci to HE1, TSS2 ? HE are mostly to clear DoT and other Hazards not really for the heal. A higher level TSS will be more helpful, but either way I'm glad you removed ST which is highly situational.

Equipment:

The complete M.A.C.O. Set is a great defensive set. No problems there.

You should replace the three aft turrets with beam arrays. Your damage will be higher with 6 beam arrays firing on a target then with 4 beams and three turrets (beams do more damage then turrets). So for a slight adjustment in play style you can gain more damage. Also, having mostly all beams will make FaW that much more useful.

Consoles:

Your Tac consoles are good. If you want to keep the work bees and the Aquarius that's fine keep them in there, but there are many other consoles that would be infinitely more useful. Zero Point and Tachyokinetic come to mind. The Nukara Particle Converter is also decent, particularly for a beam cruiser. I'd replace the two enhanced neutronium consoles with something else. It's definitely overkill on the resistance (which as I hope you know suffers from diminishing returns). Particularly if you equip Aux2SIF which adds to resistances and has an up time of 66%. You could move the Aquarius and work bees up to engineering maybe equip a field generator or emitter array to help with ship capacity and/or healing.


I don't always play Star Trek Online, but when I do, I'm grinding Argala.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,605
# 19
08-29-2013, 10:38 AM
Alrighty. Well for starters, your skill tree is very... balanced. That being said... well there are some changes probably needed for the rest of your build. I'll start with ship equipment:

Shield, Deflector, Engine are fine, even though if it were me I would switch to a Borg engine just for the added engine power which gives a tiny bonus to turn rate and move speed. However, overall, no changes needed there.

As weapons go, I would agree with the others. Switch to a 6/1/1 layout. Meaning: 6 beams, 1 torp, KCB. Trust me, you'll do quite a bit more damage. Or you can keep the DBB for the BO3, and then swing around for a broadside after you've nuked them with it. But the turrets... seriously lose them. OR if you want to keep them, switch to 3 DBBs on the nose with a torp so you can maximize your forward damage. Trust me, when your targets are hull heavy like they are with NPCs, you want the torp. It helps.

Tac consoles are fine. Eng consoles... well it's ok, albeit a mite overtanky for PvE, but hey, whatever floats your boat. As for sci consoles, I would ditch the Oddy consoles completely (since you are seem hellbent on NOT using chevron sep), and replace them with a Zero Point Energy Conduit and Nukara console, since those will both greatly boost your damage output.

As for your BOff layout... well, the tactical slots are fine as is (even though it would be nice to know what your DOff layout is), your sci BOff layout is also fine, but your eng is a mess.

As stated by others, you are fine with the double EPtS, but you really should run another copy of EPtW instead of DEM1. Tbh, you don't really need DEM on any ESTF, since the shield facings on enemy NPCs are just so easy to take out. After that, you're on pure hull, and DEM doesn't do squat there.

Here's a proposed change I would give:

Cmdr Eng: EPtS1, EPtW2, EPtW3, Aux2SIF3
Ens Uni: EPtS1

You'll lose out on the utility given by DEM, but DEM isn't necessary against NPCs. Instead you'll gain constant damage bonus through added energy damage via the EPtW ability and added weapons power.

This is significantly different from my build, but to each their own. However, if you wanted Odyssey builds, you just gotta look a little harder, there are plenty of Cruiser threads out there with builds for lots of different cruiser types and roles, the Odyssey Tac Cruiser DPS included. Try this one out for size: http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/sh...r+build+thread
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Why the Devs can't make PvE content harder. <--- DR proved me wrong!
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 75
# 20
02-24-2014, 08:40 AM
I was running a DBB in front, with 1 quantum in front and 1 in back, plus a tricobalt in front, so 1 BA in front and 3 in back.

I cut out the DBB a few days ago and added another BA. My DPS has shot up a bit. Yeah, the DBB punches much harder, but it also drains a lot of weapon energy, has a much slower cooldown, and takes away from the other banks. With all BAs, you're doing constant damage from at least two arrays at any given time, so it is less damage but more opportunity. Also, with a DBB you have to sacrifice damage for accuracy. But without ACC, a missed DBB shot kills your energy with nothing to show. BAs give more shots, and therefore more chances to hit and critical, plus the Proc gets more chances to hit.

I could probably lose the Tricobalt and add another beam array (will probably try at some point) but the TCB does the same thing as DBBs for initial punch, only bigger. It lets me get that shot off (especially with a heavy shot), does decent damage, and has the bonus of a big knock and stun potential. The quantums are for beating up a hull once your beams have chewed through.

I put the strongest quantum on the back, since in turning and broadsiding, it is easier to head away and give yourself more turn room, while still unleashing a powerful spread of kinetic damage.

Bottom line: I consider DBBs and turrets almost utterly pointless on a big cruiser. The damage increase is not enough to compensate for the energy spiking. Better to have a cuiser that can hit from every angle with a very steady energy level.
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