Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,000
# 11
08-29-2013, 08:34 AM
Very nice to see some hard numbers and I've always known that certain drains can be very good in PvE, now we have numbers to back it up a bit, thanks =)

One thing though, I believe the leech console is capped in how much power it can drain from a target due to a lot of whining when a full KDF team were using it and shutting down entire teams down. You can get more power but that seems to come out of thin air/space as the person only experiences -15(?) all subsystems while you can get +15 and upwards.

For PvP, when you factor in the drains from 5) you get (-58+-58.4+-15)/2 = -36.1 energy drain if the player has 9 points in insulators. 6 points give you a 42% resistance which is -42 energy drain all systems, which alone is not too shabby but with everyone essentially having a leech console and more ways to boost power in the forms of warp cores and singularity cores it is not as crippling as it really should be.

For shield drains again a decent PvPer will have at least 6 in insulators which sees a 42% reduction in the shield drains which gives 441x4 for tachyon beam 2 (if target didn't zip wildly out of firing arc) and 163.4 for tractor beam with doff for your heavy investment of 4 consoles, 9 points in flow caps and huge skill investment at the cost of most or all your firepower.

You might think I'm having a go at your build now and that's not what I want you to think, what I want to highlight is just how much it is resisted in PvP by putting 6-9 points in a rank 2 skill which is fairly cheap. I think the way resists work should be changed for science abilities as you just can't keep up with resists from skill points. Perhaps insulators should be like damage resists are now where skill points bring a moderate amount but more resistance is brought through consoles upto the 50% hardcap (so maybe 2 consoles needed to reach the hard cap) which makes the resists have a bigger disadvantage and won't penalise a very specialised and highly specced player.

Finally and this is most important so it gets it's own line below:

Thank you for doing this test and providing us with numbers and a clue about caps and how drains are currently working.
------
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.

Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 40
# 12
08-29-2013, 08:59 AM
Thanks, I was getting quite bored of my sci and this looks like a fun thing to pick up again, good thing that i'm specced for it


Btw no charged particle burst?

Last edited by majinsyllus; 08-29-2013 at 09:46 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 892
# 13
08-29-2013, 09:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ursusmorologus View Post
There are a couple of problems with it in PVP. First is that the 2.5% chance to drain requires you to hit the target, and sometimes they wont let you do it (eg, group focus-fire, spike alpha, staying in your aft quadrant, etc). Also, 100 points in Power Insulators will cut the drain rate in half, which means that if you run across somebody with 6 bars of PI and a couple of consoles, your drain build loses half of its potential, and more PI reduces the effect further. This is why a lot of people just dont mess with it. In practical terms its a very good thing for a sci to carry, but it has to be considered that you are only going to be cutting some of the enemy's power some of the time. Its good to have, but it should not be the primary attack mechanism.
I guess my original post was really not clear so let me clarify. In all calculations, I assume the target has a 50% resist to drain with 100 points into Power Insulation. Secondly, the Tetryon Proc was not used in any of the calculation for effect on target because it is far from a sure thing. The only abilities used to calculate the impact on target are those that happen with certainty, namely : Energy Siphon III, innate Subsystem Targeting, Plasmonic Leech None of these 3 abilities can be dodged although you could stop ES with HE temporarily.

Know that most ships in PvP have 50%+ resist to drain, then it stands to reason in order for the drains to be effective, the total drains on the subsystem will have to be 2X greater than the power level of that subsystem. Let's use a Fleet Mogai (Valdore) as an example and call it IRW Sela.

Here is IRW Sela's Power Levels :

Weapons : 125 / 100
Shields : 54 / 35
Engines : 62 / 30
Auxiliary : 55 / 35

IRW Sela also has 100 points into Power Insulation.

What happens when IRW Sela is being drained?

At Flow Capacitors = 286 :

1) Energy Siphon III : Stated drain = 58 Actual drain = 58 / 2 = 29 Results :

Weapons : 125 / 100 => 125 - 29 = 96 / 100
Shields : 54 / 35 => 54 - 29 = 25 / 100
Engines : 62 / 30 => 62 - 29 = 33 / 100
Auxiliary : 55 / 35 => 55 - 29 = 26 / 100


2) innate Subsystem Targeting : Stated drain = 58.4 Actual drain = 58.4 / 2 = 29 Results :

Weapons : 96 / 100 => 96 - 29 = 67 / 100
Shields : 25 / 35 => 25 - 29 = -4 / 100
Engines : 33 / 30 => 33 - 29 = 4 / 100
Auxiliary : 26 / 35 => 26 - 29 = -3 / 100

3) Plasmonic Leech : Stated drain = 3.9 X 10 Actual drain = 3.9 X 10 / 2 = 19 Results :

Weapons : 67 / 100 => 67 - 19 = 48 / 100
Shields : -4 / 35 => -4 - 19 = -23 / 100
Engines : 4 / 30 => 4 - 19 = -15 / 100
Auxiliary : -3 / 35 => -3 - 19 = -22 / 100

Note that Subsystem Targeting does not affect all 4 subsystems simultaneously, unlike ES III and Plasmonic Leech. They can however be bunched up and fire 2 back to back shots on two selected subsystems. The advantages of the above abilities are the sureness and speed of delivery. Unlike Klingon's Elite Interceptors, Siphon Drones and Aceton Assimilators, which can all be destroyed or otherwise avoided by moving away - none of the above can be dodged or "destroyed" and their effect is instantaneous. In this sense, this is vastly different from the Klingon's "drain carrier".

In this example, IRW Sela will likely see two of its key subsystems knocked offline, most likely Auxiliary and Shields. Here is what it may look like :

Starfleet Captain : "Activates ES III, Tactial, target their Shields and Auxiliary, fire!"

Tal Shiar Operations Officer : "Commander, our Shields are losing power. We are being drained!

Tal Shiar Commander : "Activate Hazard Emitters, Helm, Evasive Maneuvers and move us out of their firing range."

Tal Shiar Science Officer : "Commander, our Auxiliary system is offline! Hazard Emitters is inoperable, neither is our Battlecloak!"

Tal Shiar Helmsman : "Commander, our Engines are losing power rapidly as well. The enemy ship is closing in. We need to get away before we are totally dead in the water!"

Tal Shiar Commander : "Engineering, rerouting Emergency Power to Shields and bring the Shields back online!"


Starfleet Operations Officer : "Captain, the Tal Shiar Warbird's shields are back up, they are rerouting powers to their shields."

Starfleet Captain : "Get a tractor lock on them and activate tractor shield drain. Stand ready to fire Tachyon Beam on my mark"


Tal Shiar Operations Officer : "Commander, our Shields lost all power again. The Starfleet vessel is firing somekind of Plasmonic drain with their super charged Tetryon weapons, EPtS was unable to compensate!"

Tal Shiar Commander : "@#$^%&"



The bottom line is the drain is so great that even EPtS I can't compensate for the negative power loss resulting from the Triple combination of ES III + SST + PL despite having 100 points in Power Insulation. Most Romulan vessels do not carry EPtA given that EptE, EptW and EptS are overwhelmingly more popular, therefore, the Auxiliary system is always going to be the most vulnerable system on a Romulan Warbird, without it, it can't cloak nor cleanse. What about "Auxiliary Battery"? A smart a$$ cadet would definitely ask this question. The answer : Auxiliary Battery has a CD of 2 minutes and generally last only 10 seconds. All of the above power lasts far greater than 10 seconds and recycle much more rapidly as well. ES III can be fired back to back with merely 6 - 10 seconds of separation after the first one expires. At best, you can save your behind the 1st time but the 2nd time, you battery will be in CD and nothing to repair the disabled Auxiliary system.

Meanwhile, the attacking ship is capable of sustaining a constant DPS of 17K+ for 30 seconds, how long is this Valdore going to last under that kind of firepower without Shields and Heals?
Captain
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 892
# 14
08-29-2013, 10:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dahminus View Post
I'd like to recommend the polarized disrupter weapons for added awesome sauce. Flow Caps effect the drain and the disrupter proc will boost the entire teams damage.
Thanks for your comment, however, polarizd disruptor doesn't work with this build. Note that even without any FC console installed, the ship already has FC = 159 due to a very careful mix & selection of gear. The Tetryon based weapon is a necessity in order to maximize Flow Capacitor skill. In addition, the Polarized series of weapons have only 2 modifiers as opposed to Adv. Fleet Tetryon which have 4 modifiers, including 2 X Acc each.


Generally speaking, any of those specialized hybrid weapons is a bad idea having two proc modifiers mean much of their punch depends on chance. Note that in my calculations, I completely ignore the Tetryon proc as though it doesn't exist. The weapon also comes with a 5% plasma proc due to having 2 X Plasma Infuse Embassy Sci consoles, which I also ignore in my calculations. As it stands, the weapons of this prototype are really "Plasma Infused Tetryon". While that's nice to have, they are secondary at best.
Captain
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 3,306
# 15
08-29-2013, 10:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by iskandus View Post
I guess my original post was really not clear so let me clarify. In all calculations, I assume the target has a 50% resist to drain with 100 points into Power Insulation.
You did not mention PI or insulators at all in the OP. Now I'm wondering what else isnt there. It might be a good idea to republish the data.

Quote:
Secondly, the Tetryon Proc was not used in any of the calculation for effect on target because it is far from a sure thing.
I didn't say anything about Tetryon. The 2.5% chance applies to all energy weapon procs, including Polaron. You get pretty good chance of applying it in PVE since targets are slow and generally stupid but it is much less of a sure thing in PVP when the target is decloaking behind your ship, and you have a small window for your rear turrers to proc.
Captain
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 892
# 16
08-29-2013, 10:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ursusmorologus View Post
You did not mention PI or insulators at all in the OP. Now I'm wondering what else isnt there. It might be a good idea to republish the data.


Let me highlight it for you so that you can't miss them again - it's there in plain sights. Now I wonder if you needed glasses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Post #1
In Kerrat, the regular Cubes have their shields drained completely on all sides within 10 seconds. The effect on Klingons were quite crippling but less obvious and require more testing since many of them have become master runners and hiders - run at first sign of trouble. Against Romulans, the drain is especially effective due to their lower power level from Singularity Core. The combination of ES III + SST drains 116 in Power. Romulans usually allocate most of their power to Weapons, leaving the average power level in Shields, Engines and Auxiliary around 50 - 60. Even assuming they have 9 points in Power Insulation, therefore 50% resist to drain, the ES III + SST combo drains about 50 - 60 in the targeted subsystem, say Auxiliary, which will knock out their battlecloaks. Once you factor in the effect of Plasomonic Leech, that's another -40 power to each of the subsystem, discounted at 50% = -20 power to each subsystem. In order not to be knock out, the Romulans will need to have at least 70-80 power in Shields, Engines or Auxiliary. Even when their shields have EPtS in effect, the added power from EPtS averaged around 20 or so, which means their shield power level should be about 75 +/-, their shields run great risk of being knocked out completely despite having EPtS.

Last edited by iskandus; 08-29-2013 at 10:43 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 3,306
# 17
08-29-2013, 10:42 AM
That's the anecdotal section, not the data.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iskandus View Post
I guess my original post was really not clear so let me clarify. In all calculations, I assume the target has a 50% resist to drain with 100 points into Power Insulation.
There is nothing to indicate that your data shows any PI.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,862
# 18
08-29-2013, 10:47 AM
Lol, I hadn't posted about this because it would make some items desirable again, but now that you put the hard numbers no one had posted before here are my suggestions.

1) Jem'Hadar deflector just to add even more to the flow caps.
2) 2 piece omega set - Since it seems Tetryon Glider is better than the tetryon proc and is enhanced by flow capacitors. Switch over to polaron weapons.
3) Doff assignment crit = +25 more (You can accumulate crits of the same type. Deadly)
4) Quantum Singularity Manipulation = +100 for 8 seconds
5) I prefer the Sci Vesta

And like you said, inspirational leader adds 10-30, although getting x3 at least for me is extremely rare.

And they say sci captains suck. Well, they sure do, power that is.

Last edited by lucho80; 08-29-2013 at 10:54 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 892
# 19
08-29-2013, 10:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ursusmorologus View Post
That's the anecdotal section, not the data.



There is nothing to indicate that your data shows any PI.
Are you just obstinate or are just clueless as to how to use those data? The data in post #1 are my raw data, aka. what shows up on my tooltip. Any smart & intelligent person can take those raw numbers and apply any resistance assumptions they see fit. I just use a straight 50% resist, the target can in fact have more or less than 50% resistance, it's impossible to predict with certainty.

Clearly, this discussion is beyond your comprehension, these shall be my last words with you on this.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,030
# 20
08-29-2013, 10:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by iskandus View Post
Are you just obstinate or are just clueless as to how to use those data? The data in post #1 are my raw data, aka. what shows up on my tooltip. Any smart & intelligent person can take those raw numbers and apply any resistance assumptions they see fit. I just use a straight 50% resist, the target can in fact have more or less than 50% resistance, it's impossible to predict with certainty.

Clearly, this discussion is beyond your comprehension, these shall be my last words with you on this.
Easy man,

And I am having issues with how tetryon weapons improve your build over polaron. Polaron will drain all 4 subsystems, continuing to be useful for when the shields go down. I understand this is more emphasis on consistent drain effects but polaron is the more ideal weapon type.

Wasn't there a dev post that states plasmonic leech is capped off at -15 drain? The +X has a "skies the limit" mechanic, but could've sworn the drain was nerfed

You did mention the power insulator query in the original post but there wasn't mention as to the data being fired upon a target with said skill. Just wasn't clear and was left to assumptions that you could or couldn't be firing on a target with PI

Love the data, I still think the meimito needs to weigh in
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