Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,866
# 21
08-29-2013, 11:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dahminus View Post
Wasn't there a dev post that states plasmonic leech is capped off at -15 drain? The +X has a "skies the limit" mechanic, but could've sworn the drain was nerfed
Nope, no limit. Stacks 8 times and enhanced by flow capacitors. Now if they capped off each individual proc then 15*8=120 which is pretty much max power anyway.
Captain
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 899
# 22
08-29-2013, 11:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bpharma View Post
Very nice to see some hard numbers and I've always known that certain drains can be very good in PvE, now we have numbers to back it up a bit, thanks =)

One thing though, I believe the leech console is capped in how much power it can drain from a target due to a lot of whining when a full KDF team were using it and shutting down entire teams down. You can get more power but that seems to come out of thin air/space as the person only experiences -15(?) all subsystems while you can get +15 and upwards.
That's possible, if so, I am not aware of this information. Maybe someone else can confirm with certainty. In any event, the Plasmonic Leech only effect -19 after resist, so +/- 4 is not going to make a significant difference.

Quote:
For PvP, when you factor in the drains from 5) you get (-58+-58.4+-15)/2 = -36.1 energy drain if the player has 9 points in insulators. 6 points give you a 42% resistance which is -42 energy drain all systems, which alone is not too shabby but with everyone essentially having a leech console and more ways to boost power in the forms of warp cores and singularity cores it is not as crippling as it really should be.
I believe you made some math errors in your calculation. Also, if there is any hard cap on how much the PL can drain, the -15 is likely a maximum number, therefore, you should not divide -15 by 2 again given it already came down from -40, doing so you would account for the resist twice. While we wait for confirmation on the mechanism of Plasmonic Leech, let's assume there is a hard cap on PL at 15, then the adjusted equation should be written as follows :

(-58 - 58.4) / 2 + (-15) = -73.2 of Energy Drain per subsystem

Against Klingons, this will likely be insufficient to cripple their Shields or Engines due to EPtS and EPtE. Still, they would be significantly slowed, shields would stop to regenerate when power < 25 and become very fragile.

Against Romulans, all except the Weapons subsystem is at risk of being knock out.

Quote:
For shield drains again a decent PvPer will have at least 6 in insulators which sees a 42% reduction in the shield drains which gives 441x4 for tachyon beam 2 (if target didn't zip wildly out of firing arc) and 163.4 for tractor beam with doff for your heavy investment of 4 consoles, 9 points in flow caps and huge skill investment at the cost of most or all your firepower.
First, let me address Tachyon Beam and Tractor Beam. Those are supportive skills, not the primary drain weapons. Tachyon Beam is a rapidly recycling ability, with a CD of merely 30 seconds, which can be reduced to 15 via A2B and/or Photonic Officer. In case you didn't know, Tachyon Beam now has a firing arc of 135 degree = 3 times wider than that of a DHC and all its 10 pulses can be delivered in 4 seconds. In other words, one only need to maintain the 135 degree arc for 4 seconds for it to take full effect - piece of cake for most Science vessels. Both Tractor and Tachyon has cap of 10 pulses, so let's use your post-resist numbers and see what happens when both fire together : 441 + 163 = -614 per shield facing X 10

In other words, despite decent shield drain resistance, each facing of the target shield will lose 6140 shield strength in seconds when Tachyon Beam II and Tractor Beam II work together. Given that most Escorts have about 9000 - 10000 shields per facing when using Elite Fleet Shields, we are talking about between 60 ~ 70% of their total shields in one pass. To add insults to injury, this renders Tactical Team almost useless. TT is very ineffective when all shields facings are under assault. And if there is a big hole somewhere, it also greatly limits how much TT can reroute to repair that hole. Can't think of a better skill to make Escorts run for cover faster when their TT doesn't work.

As for the comment that this cost the ship most of its firepower. I am totally This ship is capable of sustaining a top constant DPS of 17K+ for 30 seconds, see here : Total DPS = 7,908 + 2,235 + 2,165 + 2,128 + 2 X 1,325 = 17,086


Quote:
You might think I'm having a go at your build now and that's not what I want you to think, what I want to highlight is just how much it is resisted in PvP by putting 6-9 points in a rank 2 skill which is fairly cheap
Not at all, I welcome constructive feedback and comments, just make sure you don't make math errors in your calculations because as you can see, the math errors resulted in drastically different outcomes.

Quote:
I think the way resists work should be changed for science abilities as you just can't keep up with resists from skill points. Perhaps insulators should be like damage resists are now where skill points bring a moderate amount but more resistance is brought through consoles upto the 50% hardcap (so maybe 2 consoles needed to reach the hard cap) which makes the resists have a bigger disadvantage and won't penalise a very specialised and highly specced player.
I believe Science skills in general can benefit from a boost. Though given what's trending now, it is more likely they will tone down Escort's burst damage, which is an acceptable outcome as well.

Quote:
Finally and this is most important so it gets it's own line below:

Thank you for doing this test and providing us with numbers and a clue about caps and how drains are currently working.
You are very welcome.
Captain
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 899
# 23
08-29-2013, 11:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dahminus View Post
Easy man,

You did mention the power insulator query in the original post but there wasn't mention as to the data being fired upon a target with said skill. Just wasn't clear and was left to assumptions that you could or couldn't be firing on a target with PI

Love the data, I still think the meimito needs to weigh in
sigh...hence, I took the time to acknowledge & clarify in post #13 :

http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/sh...1&postcount=13

Quote:
I guess my original post was really not clear so let me clarify. In all calculations, I assume the target has a 50% resist to drain with 100 points into Power Insulation. Secondly, the Tetryon Proc was not used in any of the calculation for effect on target because it is far from a sure thing. The only abilities used to calculate the impact on target are those that happen with certainty, namely : Energy Siphon III, innate Subsystem Targeting, Plasmonic Leech None of these 3 abilities can be dodged although you could stop ES with HE temporarily.
Look, I welcome all feedback, comments and suggestions because I am here to discuss but please don't make me waste my time, I am not interested in obstination.
Captain
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 899
# 24
08-29-2013, 11:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucho80 View Post
Lol, I hadn't posted about this because it would make some items desirable again, but now that you put the hard numbers no one had posted before here are my suggestions.
I realize I am taking a great risk of publishing my studies and finding and sharing my builds. The intention is and has always been to help fellow Starfleet to improve builds, hence this is made specifically at Federation Shipyards and no where else. My concern is not how this may affect the Exchange although someone told me in another thread I started cause a 400% price spike in a certain purple doff - not my intention, I have no control over it. What I am apprehensive about is all the Klingons & Kromulans lurking around here, wish there is a way to stop them from lurking.

Quote:
1) Jem'Hadar deflector just to add even more to the flow caps.
I am aware of that, by roughly +8 in FC compared to the Adapted MACO Deflector. That said, the rest of the set and the other powers of the deflector do not fit a Science vessel very well. Everything considered, it is best to forego the +8 in FC to have a much better balanced ship.

Quote:
2) 2 piece omega set - Since it seems Tetryon Glider is better than the tetryon proc and is enhanced by flow capacitors. Switch over to polaron weapons.
The Tetryon Glider option has been considered, the problem is the Omega Deflector is much inferior to the Adapted MACO Deflector for a Science ship. The latter is by far the best deflector for a Science vessel. Omega Deflector has a lot of "wasted / useless" skills, for example +26 Starship Sensors, which is useless against Romulan Cloaks. Omega Engine is an acceptable alternative to Elite Fleet Hyper-Engines, the problem really is on the Deflector. Replacing the Shield is a non-starter. Polaron Weapons lose the Nukara 2 piece Tetryon bonus, the Refracting Tetryon DBB and -17 in FC skill, so no, your overall drain will drop by a lot as a result.

Quote:
3) Doff assignment crit = +25 more (You can accumulate crits of the same type. Deadly)
True, but to be conservative, I ignore those assignment bonus.

Quote:
4) Quantum Singularity Manipulation = +100 for 8 seconds
Yes, it was noted as the option 6) in post #1


Quote:
5) I prefer the Sci Vesta
I do not like any of the Vesta, slow & fragile (less hull and shields). Plus, you are forced to have Tactical stations on a Vesta, unlike the Wells and that's a major downside. You either go all Sci or fly an Escort with lots of Tact. The in-betweens are good at nothing.
Captain
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 899
# 25
08-29-2013, 11:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucho80 View Post
Nope, no limit. Stacks 8 times and enhanced by flow capacitors. Now if they capped off each individual proc then 15*8=120 which is pretty much max power anyway.
Wiki says 8 stacks, but in my own testing, it shows it stacks up to 10 times. I will ask a fleet mate to test it with me and see what kind of numbers he is getting on his side.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,866
# 26
08-29-2013, 12:38 PM
Lol, as predicted, someone has ran up some very specific weapons I shall not mention. Prices went from 1 mil EC a piece to 9 mil EC minimum.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 40
# 27
08-29-2013, 03:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucho80 View Post
Lol, as predicted, someone has ran up some very specific weapons I shall not mention. Prices went from 1 mil EC a piece to 9 mil EC minimum.
Do tell o.O
Commander
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 292
# 28
08-29-2013, 03:55 PM
Someone mentioned giving up firepower with this build and I don't see that either, but what I have seen in my own drain build is that you're giving up a good amount of survivability running all those flow cap consoles instead of emitters or generators. It could've just been the fact that I was using the aforementioned squishy Sci Vesta.
And from a PvP standpoint, I just wonder how effective the role of a Sci drainer/holder is in a team setting. And if the contribution made to the team is worth it, as opposed to a Sci healer.
Captain
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 899
# 29
08-29-2013, 04:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by panserbjorne39 View Post
Someone mentioned giving up firepower with this build and I don't see that either, but what I have seen in my own drain build is that you're giving up a good amount of survivability running all those flow cap consoles instead of emitters or generators. It could've just been the fact that I was using the aforementioned squishy Sci Vesta.
And from a PvP standpoint, I just wonder how effective the role of a Sci drainer/holder is in a team setting. And if the contribution made to the team is worth it, as opposed to a Sci healer.
That's an excellent point. To clarify, no firepower has been given up vs. the Pure Science build. If anything, firepower has slightly increased due to the Plasma Infused aspect of all energy weapons. However, by removing the 4 Field Generator Mk XII (purple), I have to admit, I was apprehensive going into Kerrat to do the testing. To lose so much shielding that this prototype is dependent on is...unsettling.

What I can say though is this drain build is a very effective disabler. While some people have excellent power insulation, you'd be surprised how many people still don't get it. Even in the Shipyard forum, I see so many people with 0 points into Power Insulation. Incredible as it may seem, this is not a rare occurrence. But even those who do have power insulation, this build is designed to break through those power insulation via 300%-400% Flow Capacitors, especially as an anti-Kromulan Science vessel as it can quickly disable a Kromulan's Auxiliary system, knocking out their Battlecloak. A Romulan who is out of Battlecloak will start to panic and become easy picking.

In a team setting, the drain build will be excellent at tackling two things :

1) Main attacking Escort(s)

or

2) Take the Healer out of commission


Both SST and PL cannot be "healed" or "cured" by another teammate passing you a heal. For Escorts, to be sucked dry will make them very slow and little power to fire all those heavy weapons. Worst, no amount of APO will get them moving if their engines have no power. Tractor and Tachyon Beam being used as anti-Tactical Team tools will produce a similar effect to Borg Shield Neutralizer. But without speed and shields, the Escorts can't focus on attacking, instead, have to constantly try to run for his life. The Science vessel will be dependent on FBP to keep enemies fires at bay and of course, colleague support.

Another use is to tackle the healer, like a Recluse Carrier. Recluse is highly dependent on Aux to function and to pass out its heals. Focusing on its shields and aux will strip away its shields and abilities to heal. The strategy is to turn your Sci ship into one that can fire pseudo-Borg Shield Neutralizer. 99.9% of ships can't survive for more than 10 seconds without shields. Once the healer is destroyed, all those Escorts will be running around without support.

Last edited by iskandus; 08-29-2013 at 04:24 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,546
# 30
08-29-2013, 04:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ursusmorologus View Post
First off, thanks for the hard numbers, that kind of data is always useful.
Frankly, not seeing any 'hard numbers.' I see extrapolations, but nothing solid. Could be totally wrong (still kinda new to ACT), but I don't think power drain can currently be parsed.

It has furthermore always been my understanding that there's little to be gained from having Flow Caps >200.

I'd love to see actual parsed data on this, please.
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