Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,632
# 11
09-08-2013, 09:48 AM
I can think of a couple more options.

3) Add an ensign-level (Rank 1) engineering boff ability. Call it "Reinforce Shields" or something. Shield redistribution and something else, damage resistance maybe. Two copies of the ability should sync up. Makes that Ensign Engineer a bit more useful.

4) A doff proc that adds automated redistribution to another ability. Possibly to the other Team abilities, or maybe just to EPtS since we all use that anyway.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,000
# 12
09-08-2013, 06:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yreodred View Post
Even without the shield distribution Tactical Team has just as many functions than the other two Team powers together. I think there are two possible ways to grant some balance:


ONE:
Shield distribution should be completely removed from tactical team and become a inherent ship ability, depending on the mass of the ship. (The bigger the ship the better the shield distribution.)
The biggest an lowest Turning ships would have inherent Shield Distribution Rate similar to tactical Team has now. Smaller, tactical heavy ships like Escorts would have to use Tactical Team in order to enhance their ships low Shield Distribution rate.
Tactical Team would keep it's current bonuses but it would additionally enhance the ships inherent Shiled Distribution rate. So each Rank of Tactical team would actually have a meaning, since each Rank would grant a bigger bonus to the ships Shield Distribution rate.

TWO:
Shield Distribution should be added th Engineering Team and Sciecne team too.


I'm in favour of version one.

Opinions?
Functions maybe but if you remove shield distribution from TT would you really choose any of the functions (or even the ability itself) over a shield or hull heal with 5s cleanse? All the abilities remove their associated debuffs so they cancel each other out so by removing shield distribution you're asking people to pick between:

TT:
Removes hostile boarding parties over 10 sec
+18 Starship Energy Weapons Training for 10 sec (about +9 damage)
+18 Starship Projectile Weapons Training for 10 sec (about +9 damage)

ET:
+4,036 Hit Points

ST:
I know it's not 11 shield heal it's closer to 1100.

I might have TT there for removing boarding parties but really I wouldn't use it if I wasn't against the borg and even then I'd be more tempted with the doff that augments TSS. The bonuses from it are just too small to overcome the ability to cycle a big hull and shield heal instead.

As for your first suggestion, yeah that sounds great, buff cruisers and science ships and nerf escorts all in one blow and watch the rage blow into your face and people quit the game. What you would be doing is forcing escorts to choose TT rather than encouraging them to use it without diminishing their abilities. Cruisers and science ships don't like being forced to use TT (I can get away with not cycling it now but not in PvP) so if the shoe goes on the other foot doing the same to escorts won't accomplish anything.

I like futurepastnows idea of: 4) A doff proc that adds automated redistribution to another ability. Possibly to the other Team abilities, or maybe just to EPtS since we all use that anyway. It would certainly be an idea and be certainly worth 1 doff slot IF it was not a chance but brought shield redistribution to Eng team and Sci team respectively.

But really the whole thing boils down to removing the need to run TT either by giving shield distribution to all other abilities or buffing normal distribution. The underlying problem is that TT just does not provide a buff that is needed or wanted [/u]other[u] than shield redistribution. I would much rather see manual distribution buffed and removed entirely from team abilities and then for TT to get a proper buff.

Something to do with accuracy would be good and certainly give reasons for some people to use higher levels of abilities for alpha strikes and other ships reasons to ignore it in favour of different tactical skills. I mean would you use TT1 if it had:

Removes hostile boarding parties over 10 sec
+18 Starship Energy Weapons Training for 10 sec
+18 Starship Projectile Weapons Training for 10 sec
+5-10% accuracy for 10s (higher for higher ranks of the ability)

And shield redistribution was not an issue anymore? I know I would for my escorts and I might even consider it on other ships if only to hit the blasted escorts zipping around.

If not how would you improve tactical team to make it worth choosing over science team and engineering team?
------
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.

Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,000
# 13
09-08-2013, 07:17 PM
Looking back it may seem like I'm calling your idea bad, it's not. It's a good idea it's just as I say you will end up pissing off a lot of the player base with a move like that. While it may be acceptable to you, you're not the one who would have to explain to their boss why 20% of the playerbase didn't log into their accounts after the latest patch and still haven't with most of them affected by said change.

Really DStahl (I think it was) said it best when talking about how DHCs were over performing. He said if he could he would increase drain on them but he won't because it would just piss off a lot of people nerfing them.
------
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.

Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,840
# 14
09-08-2013, 09:01 PM
What it would do is to remove the need for the biggest (and mostly tactical weakest) ships to waste one of their tactical BOFF slots for Tactical Team, just to be able to survive.
If i remember correctly, escorts have to use TT even today, isn't it?

What my sugested change would do is to force ships with a high emphasis on Tactcal BOFF stations to continuing using Tactical Team, but they would have to use a higher ranking version of TT, to make sure their "automated shield distribution" works fast enough to be effective.

So the only "negative" thing would be that Escorts would have to use TT2 or 3 which wouldn't be so bad at all, if TT would get some other bonus like you said.
So the devs had to make the new TT "palatable" for escorts, like giving TT a addtional [acc] or [crth] bonus with each higher rank or some other bonus.
Of course the devs would have to figure out how big that bonus should be so people wouldn't rage quit at all.


-> -> -> STO players unite and say NO to ARC <- <- <-
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,000
# 15
09-09-2013, 06:06 AM
I know escorts all use TT already but they use TT1 only as the buffs on it are not even comparable to that of ST or ET let alone the silly high damage of other abilities. Well I say that, I did come across 1 forum user who "used TT3 for it's intended purpose" to buff damage. When it was pointed out how much damage he lost compared to running a higher level skill he soon switched.

I know what your proposing and I am all for removing the need of TT from ships that have limited tactical boff positions. That part of the change I'm all for. It's just the other part which forces players to use an ability they don't really want to use and even a higher version to get the same effect as they get now. Maybe with slightly better buffs it would be good like acc and crth but I'm still not happy about forcing them to use TT2/3 instead of their intended damage skills just to survive to the same level as now.

Could we not just buff shield distribution based on ship size and leave TT as is but also add in acc and crth/d modifiers to versions 2 and 3 so they have a reason to be used (like in alpha strikes) while still retaining some benefit to using TT1 for current builds and the need to run a form of TT for escorts.

This way bigger ships like cruisers have no need of TT, sci ships might bring it but most likely will not need it and escorts will perhaps need it but not a high level version unless they want the extra tasty buffs.

I mean having to slot TT2 or even TT3 just to survive is a massive DPS nerf which as I say will not go down well at all.
------
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.

Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,840
# 16
09-10-2013, 03:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bpharma View Post
I know escorts all use TT already but they use TT1 only as the buffs on it are not even comparable to that of ST or ET let alone the silly high damage of other abilities. Well I say that, I did come across 1 forum user who "used TT3 for it's intended purpose" to buff damage. When it was pointed out how much damage he lost compared to running a higher level skill he soon switched.
I think Escort pilot should chosse between thos two options, just like Cruiser captains have to choose either to use AtB for offensive or AtS for survivability. But in my opinion, Ecorts don't have to sacrifice anything ATM to get the full benefit of a maximum of possible survivability.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bpharma View Post
I know what your proposing and I am all for removing the need of TT from ships that have limited tactical boff positions. That part of the change I'm all for. It's just the other part which forces players to use an ability they don't really want to use and even a higher version to get the same effect as they get now. Maybe with slightly better buffs it would be good like acc and crth but I'm still not happy about forcing them to use TT2/3 instead of their intended damage skills just to survive to the same level as now.
Could we not just buff shield distribution based on ship size and leave TT as is but also add in acc and crth/d modifiers to versions 2 and 3 so they have a reason to be used (like in alpha strikes) while still retaining some benefit to using TT1 for current builds and the need to run a form of TT for escorts.
This way bigger ships like cruisers have no need of TT, sci ships might bring it but most likely will not need it and escorts will perhaps need it but not a high level version unless they want the extra tasty buffs.
That would make TT even stronger than now, i wouldn't want that.
With their high emphasis on tactical Escorts get a much higher means of survivability than they should have imo.
"Forcing" them to use a higher rank of TT should be self-evident for them.
As i already said, Escort should have to choose to either have more survivability or a maximum of offensive, but as it is now, they get both...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bpharma View Post
I mean having to slot TT2 or even TT3 just to survive is a massive DPS nerf which as I say will not go down well at all.
Surel, most eacort pilots would hate it, unless cryptic gives them something different at the same time. A additional [acc] or [crth] bonus with each rank of TT would be justifyable, as long as it doesn't give them any more survivability.


-> -> -> STO players unite and say NO to ARC <- <- <-
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,469
# 17
09-10-2013, 03:48 PM
There is another option. remove it from the Tac team one all together. leave it on the higher tac teams. No one ever uses tac team 2 or 3 and I'm pretty sure we all know why. Make it staged like in the revamp of other eptx abilities. then counter it by giving sci team and eng team their own must have abilities to make the choice between all 3 team abilities that much harder.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,071
# 18
09-10-2013, 05:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by robdmc View Post
There is another option. remove it from the Tac team one all together. leave it on the higher tac teams. No one ever uses tac team 2 or 3 and I'm pretty sure we all know why. Make it staged like in the revamp of other eptx abilities. then counter it by giving sci team and eng team their own must have abilities to make the choice between all 3 team abilities that much harder.
If this was done Elite space content would need a compleet balance pass. Cryptic are very work shy when it comes to polishing fixing and balancing. If this is to ever be anything other then a theoretical discussion we need a solution that can be implemented without eating a huge chunk of cryptics time table.

Allowing all ships to use their most common ensign ability slot for shield balancing would presevs enough of the status quo that a compleet balance pass isnt necisery. Small tweeks could be made over time to adress any unintended advantages specific ships might asume.

Taking away or reworking how shield balancing works entirly may well be a better solution, but it would require so much work that I doubt cryptic would ever go near it.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 5,601
# 19
09-10-2013, 05:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bpharma View Post
Well I say that, I did come across 1 forum user who "used TT3 for it's intended purpose" to buff damage. When it was pointed out how much damage he lost compared to running a higher level skill he soon switched.
Indeed. TT, whist very useful at Ensign level, is kind of a waste higher up: because of the opportunity cost.

Apart from shield distro (which, tbh, could also be done manually), I think many peeps slot TT simply because it also removes tactical debuffs and boarding parties (now, I know nobody really sends out boarding parties any more, but they probably would if you couldn't clear em so easily). And TT is, I think, the only skill which clears 'Assimilate Ship.'
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,000
# 20
09-11-2013, 06:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by meimeitoo View Post
Indeed. TT, whist very useful at Ensign level, is kind of a waste higher up: because of the opportunity cost.

Apart from shield distro (which, tbh, could also be done manually), I think many peeps slot TT simply because it also removes tactical debuffs and boarding parties (now, I know nobody really sends out boarding parties any more, but they probably would if you couldn't clear em so easily). And TT is, I think, the only skill which clears 'Assimilate Ship.'
meimitoo:

As far as I know TT is the only sure fire thing that clears it but I'm not willing to try out the doff that has a chance to remove hostile boarding parties when using TSS. I would assume it would do the same thing to assimilate ship though but it's hardly reliable.

Certainly almost no-one ever uses boarding parties but I think it's down to a number of factors like how bad disables like that are in PvE, PvP has seen a lot more spam with elite pets and carriers so a lot of teams have AoE which kills boarding parties too and the high prevalence of having to run TT back to back to keep up with damage in eSTF means most players clear it.

I've tried doing eSTF with manual distribution but you really have to pack a ton of heals or rely on cross healing to a dedicated tank to keep up. Even then I've seen a normal shot crit and take out a full shield facing in one shot with EptS3 and RSF up. You would not be able to manually redistribute at the speed needed to keep up with more than 2 of those and so need TT. Really you do need as high an uptime of TT for elite STF as possible or a team willing to spend their heals on a main tank.

Other content damage (not elite) for a real tank who draws aggro like a baws is mostly kept up with from normal shield distribution. I still have 1 copy for just in case moments but I can run with ET and ST instead for the most part and keep myself and the team very healthy.

yreodred:

As for choosing between damage and survivability under your plan, an escort would have to slot 2x TT2/3 to keep the current levels of survivability (which if you stop it moving is the lowest of all ships) which would knock all levels of abilities down at least 1. This would be a huge DPS and survivability nerf to the entire ship class all in one. They're already the most likely to die to a one shot or a super crit that other classes can survive and they already die extremely fast when they are stopped moving.

Your suggestion as I have said is not without it's merits but cutting a ship classes nuts off is not going to help. Also have you thought of how this would affect PvP? I can imagine they're not too keen to see TT get neutered this much too.

I think pwestolemyname also makes a very good point about the balancing nightmare and maybe his suggestion is best. Though would he create a new ability or just give shield distro to other abilities?
------
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.

Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.

Last edited by bpharma; 09-11-2013 at 09:51 AM.
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