Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 6,309
# 21
09-11-2013, 07:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bpharma View Post
As for choosing between damage and survivability under your plan, an escort would have to slot 2x TT2/3 to keep the current levels of survivability (which if you stop it moving is the lowest of all ships) which would knock all levels of abilities down at least 1. This would be a huge DPS and survivability nerf to the entire ship class all in one. They're already the most likely to die to a one shot or a super crit that other classes can survive and they already die extremely fast when they are stopped moving.

Your suggestion as I have said is not without it's merits but cutting a ship classes nuts off is not going to help. Also have you thought of how this would affect PvP? I can imagine they're not too keen to see TT get neutered this much too.
I have a plan?! I was more thinking out-loud, that ppl don't just use TT for the shield distro, but also for the stuff it clears. I'm perfectly happy with keeping TT as is.

Even if, as others have suggested, shield distro got moved to another skill, it would likely be an engineering skill -- thus thoroughly messing with people's also very much needed EPtX abilities. So, yeah, I'm good with keeping TT as is.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 693
# 22
09-11-2013, 08:23 AM
Personal opinion is that the buff duration of Tactical Team should be reduced to 5 seconds to bring it in line with the other Team Buffs while the global cooldown all the different team skills share should be lowered to 10 seconds while retaining the 15 second cooldown they have with themselves.

Clarification on Cooldown:

Tactical Team Copy 1 Shared CD with Tactical Team Copy 2 = 15 seconds
Science Team Copy 1 Shared CD with Science Team Copy 2 = 15 seconds
Engineering Team Copy 1 Shared CD with Engineering Team Copy 2 = 15 seconds

Tactical Team Copy 1 Shared CD with Engineering Team Copy 1 &/or Science Team Copy 1 = 10 seconds
Science Team Copy 1 Shared CD with Engineering Team Copy 1 &/or Tactical Team Copy 1 = 10 seconds
Engineering Team Copy 1 Shared CD with Tactical Team Copy 1 &/or Science Team Copy 1 = 10 seconds


Further changes I'd make to try and bring the different team abilities into some semblance of balance:

Engineering and Science Team would receive moderate buffs to the amount healing they do, but would have it converted from an instant heal to an HoT.

Tactical Team's boost to damage skills would be removed in favor of it giving a boost to Energy and Kinetic damage based on how many skill points were spent on Energy and Kinetic weapons training.

Edit:

And on the original post, I think cutting the CD on Distribute Shields in half would be a good way to buff its utility (Currently it's 3 seconds for redistrubting them evenly and six seconds for reinforcing a specific facing.

Last edited by canis36; 09-11-2013 at 08:26 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,000
# 23
09-11-2013, 08:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by meimeitoo View Post
I have a plan?! I was more thinking out-loud, that ppl don't just use TT for the shield distro, but also for the stuff it clears. I'm perfectly happy with keeping TT as is.

Even if, as others have suggested, shield distro got moved to another skill, it would likely be an engineering skill -- thus thoroughly messing with people's also very much needed EPtX abilities. So, yeah, I'm good with keeping TT as is.
Sorry meimeitoo that part wasn't directed at you, only the first part about boarding parties. I shall edit to make it clearer. =)

I am and I am not, I guess the simplest answer would be to bring shield distro to all team abilities and say to hell with TT team again.
------
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.

Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,182
# 24
09-12-2013, 01:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bpharma View Post
...

yreodred:

As for choosing between damage and survivability under your plan, an escort would have to slot 2x TT2/3 to keep the current levels of survivability (which if you stop it moving is the lowest of all ships) which would knock all levels of abilities down at least 1. This would be a huge DPS and survivability nerf to the entire ship class all in one. They're already the most likely to die to a one shot or a super crit that other classes can survive and they already die extremely fast when they are stopped moving.

Your suggestion as I have said is not without it's merits but cutting a ship classes nuts off is not going to help. Also have you thought of how this would affect PvP? I can imagine they're not too keen to see TT get neutered this much too.

I think pwestolemyname also makes a very good point about the balancing nightmare and maybe his suggestion is best. Though would he create a new ability or just give shield distro to other abilities?
No, sorry but i think we talk past each other.
Tactical team would improve a ships inherent shield distribution rate, but you wouldn't need 2 tactical teams to be even with a big slow cruiser.
So in order to get the full benefit of a tactical team shield distributions (as it is now) a Escort would need to run 1 tactical rank III power.
(We still haven't decided how long the new Tactical team will run and how long it's cooldown will be)
So if a escort jockey decides not to use Tactical team at all (whic would actually increase his DPS, he would still benefit from his ships inherent shield distribution. But in order to stay longer alive a Escort had to MANEUVER to present a undamaged shield facing to the enemy, which shouldn't be so hard with a maneuverability over 20 (using RCS consoles of course). Only if a Escort pilot insists on parking his ship and use it as a artillery (as seen in STFs) a Escort actually had to use a higher ranking Tactical Team Power.



Of course just giving other Team abilities the same shield distribution as Tactical Team would be a simple sollution, but we should't forget that other Team abilities give a hull or shield heal too.

So in order to equalize them all, Tactical team would need to get some speciality too, like a HUGE but relatively short damage boost. The problem i see in this, is the already high need to do damage in STO. Giving Tactical team a additional damage boost would make it essential for everyone again.
I think we should come up with something unique and simple that would make Tactical Team useful for escorts but without making them even more OP than they are now (damage wise).

@canis36
I agree in order to equalize all Team powers they should get the same CD of course.








In my opinon all Team powers should be completely reworked, because Tactical Team is just messing everything up (for many reasons).

Just an idea:
As few changes as possible, nothing too much complicated.

Engineering Team:
  • Repairs disabled systems over 5 sec
  • Hull HoT for 10 seconds, higher hull heal than AtS but no damage reduction Buff

Science Team:
  • Removes science debuffs for 5 sec
  • Shield Hot for 10 seconds, higher shield heal than TSS but no damage reduction Buff

Tactical Team:
  • Removes hostile boarding parties over 5 sec
  • Removes tactical debuffs over 5 sec
  • Flat kinetic damage add to energy Weapons for 10 seconds.

Shield Distribution (New universal Power; trainable by any BOFF type)
  • Distributes shield strength to shields receiving damage for 10 sec


This would make TT still useful (depending on amount of the Damage boost whic ist still up for debate of course), but far less essential for everyone. Plus it would make older ships with a high emphasis on anything else than tactical more useful IMO.

What do you think?


Sorry for answering so late.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,550
# 25
09-12-2013, 01:19 PM
TT is Fine and What about Sci Team as it relies on distribute shields as well.
Age StarTrek-Gamers Administrator
USS WARRIOR NCC 1720 Commanding Officer
Star Trek Gamers
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,136
# 26
09-12-2013, 02:04 PM
I also favor the rework of the team abilities but I would prefer that their heals be removed entirely.

As the intention is that we would most often use these abilities in the slots we have the most of I would like to use teams as a buff to the role of the ship we can expect them to be used in.

-----

Tacitcal Team I

Rebalances Shields
Removes and protects against tactical debuffs (AP Beta and Delta) and boarding parties.
+ 10 to: Starship Energy Weapons. Starship Projectile Weapons. Starship Targeting Systems. Starship Maneuvers. Starship Energy Weapon Specialization. Starship Projectile Weapon Specialization.

Science Team I

Rebalances Shields
Removes non-tactical debuffs, not including dots or subsystem disables.
+ 10 to: Starship Flow Capacitors. Starship Shield Systems. Starship Graviton Generators. Starship Particle Generators. Starship Sensors. Starship Subspace Decompiler.

Enginearing Team I

Rebalances Shields
Restores disabled subsystems and removes dots.
+ 10 to: Starship Hull Repair. Starship Batteries. Starship Electro-Plasma Systems. Starship Impulse Thrusters. Starship Hull Plating. Starship Armor Reinforcements.

-----

Tacitcal Team II

Rebalances Shields
Removes and protects against tactical debuffs (AP Beta and Delta) and boarding parties.
+ 25 to: Starship Energy Weapons. Starship Projectile Weapons. Starship Targeting Systems. Starship Maneuvers. Starship Energy Weapon Specialization. Starship Projectile Weapon Specialization.

Science Team II

Rebalances Shields
Removes non-tactical debuffs, not including dots or subsystem disables.
+ 25 to: Starship Flow Capacitors. Starship Shield Systems. Starship Graviton Generators. Starship Particle Generators. Starship Sensors. Starship Subspace Decompiler.

Enginearing Team II

Rebalances Shields
Restores disabled subsystems and removes dots.
+ 25 to: Starship Hull Repair. Starship Batteries. Starship Electro-Plasma Systems. Starship Impulse Thrusters. Starship Hull Plating. Starship Armor Reinforcements.

-----

Tacitcal Team III

Rebalances Shields
Removes and protects against tactical debuffs (AP Beta and Delta) and boarding parties.
+ 50 to: Starship Energy Weapons. Starship Projectile Weapons. Starship Targeting Systems. Starship Maneuvers. Starship Energy Weapon Specialization. Starship Projectile Weapon Specialization.

Science Team III

Rebalances Shields
Removes non-tactical debuffs, not including dots or subsystem disables.
+ 50 to: Starship Flow Capacitors. Starship Shield Systems. Starship Graviton Generators. Starship Particle Generators. Starship Sensors. Starship Subspace Decompiler.

Enginearing Team III

Rebalances Shields
Restores disabled subsystems and removes dots.
+ 50 to: Starship Hull Repair. Starship Batteries. Starship Electro-Plasma Systems. Starship Impulse Thrusters. Starship Hull Plating. Starship Armor Reinforcements.

-----

Now no doubt your all thinking, 'But pwstolemyname, not all these abilities are equal to the same skill point investment!' I considered the merits of giving each team the same skill point value but decided against it. The truth is that some lower tear captain skills are simply more useful then higher tear ones.

My initial inclination was also to give engineering team bonuses to those captain skills that increase ship power output. But I ultimately decided it was better to avoid this as there are already far too many ways for us to cap out all our power levels and for romulans to work around their disadvantage.

Last edited by pwstolemyname; 09-12-2013 at 05:02 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,000
# 27
09-12-2013, 06:05 PM
No, I'm listening to what you're saying it's just you don't seem to grasp how big of a nerf this will be to the status quo. No-one likes nerfs and when you nerf very popular abilities without putting something as a viable alternative to keep what they're doing, people walk. This is a free to play game, that also means people are free to go to other games when big nerfs happen and spend their $5 a month on another free game.

Did you not see what happened when dilithium was removed from STFs? Most of my friends and fleet mates logged off that day and haven't come back. Your escort nerf would do the same thing to escort pilots which while I do not have any official figures I would assume to be a sizeable chunk of the player base.

Couple that with having to create a whole new skill class (which could be easy or completely impossible) of a universal skill and you're just dreaming. I mean even if it was possible you would then be making people slot the new distribution ability AND their debuff cleansing abilities thereby having to take out an offensive ability for survival across all classes. PvPers would hate this with good reason.

At least pwestolemyname has come up with something that is possible under the current game systems and for the most part seems balanced.

As for pwestolemyname, looks good. As you say some lower tier skills are more useful and some are less. I would also say some skills are flat out more useful than others cross class. I think adding countermeasures to ST and efficiency to ET would make it balanced against the tactical edge given by TT. If tacs whine give em threat control =P (joking, I'm sure most people would see the common sense in ET and ST buffing 7 skills vs 6 for tactical)

The change away from heals would be a bit of a bummer for some but not many use it for the heals either so you wouldn't be p***ing off a large number of players and even they would be happy to get the redistribution.

On the whole I like the idea. Even if I would not get to cycle hull and shield heal with shield distro!
------
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.

Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.

Last edited by bpharma; 09-12-2013 at 06:09 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 4,816
# 28
09-12-2013, 07:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bpharma View Post
No, I'm listening to what you're saying it's just you don't seem to grasp how big of a nerf this will be to the status quo. No-one likes nerfs and when you nerf very popular abilities without putting something as a viable alternative to keep what they're doing, people walk. This is a free to play game, that also means people are free to go to other games when big nerfs happen and spend their $5 a month on another free game.
yet if they dont sort the game mechanics people are going to continue to walk because the gameplay here just isnt mechanically up to the content of the game.

id love to feel like i could spend some more money on this game but i honestly dont see any sustainability in sto when there is such wild disparity between different power combinations you would think would lead to aplication of different tactics, but simply lead to cookie cutter or fail.

even myself when i want pvp, i go play planetside, which for the last few weeks, i have played more than sto.

not to mention the vast arrays of content that COULD be added if the devs would actually develop it.

making small craft combat into a colony wars type experience would be a crowd draw all of its own.
same with the rocket packs in risa, that proved beyond a doubt that sto could have racing content like this to draw people in, but do they do it?
no, they keep slogging out ships & doffs specifically and deliberately designed to obsoletise the old content with power creep.

so tell me, why do i want to spend money here when the playing field is not only so skewed it makes cryptics own cash shop items worth less than credit "mirror ships" but boils down to who stacked the most cheese to win by sheer force of calculator?

and yea, i even have narrative ideas about how to get tat stuff into the game without breaking the 'star trek' theme, you could probably come up with some yourself in a few seconds.
Cryptic.
Figure out and address the players path of least resistance to reward. this one thing is THE consistent factor undermining all your efforts. be that crafting, raids or starbase projects.

Last edited by skollulfr; 09-12-2013 at 07:48 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,000
# 29
09-13-2013, 02:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skollulfr View Post
yet if they dont sort the game mechanics people are going to continue to walk because the gameplay here just isnt mechanically up to the content of the game.

id love to feel like i could spend some more money on this game but i honestly dont see any sustainability in sto when there is such wild disparity between different power combinations you would think would lead to aplication of different tactics, but simply lead to cookie cutter or fail.

even myself when i want pvp, i go play planetside, which for the last few weeks, i have played more than sto.

not to mention the vast arrays of content that COULD be added if the devs would actually develop it.

making small craft combat into a colony wars type experience would be a crowd draw all of its own.
same with the rocket packs in risa, that proved beyond a doubt that sto could have racing content like this to draw people in, but do they do it?
no, they keep slogging out ships & doffs specifically and deliberately designed to obsoletise the old content with power creep.

so tell me, why do i want to spend money here when the playing field is not only so skewed it makes cryptics own cash shop items worth less than credit "mirror ships" but boils down to who stacked the most cheese to win by sheer force of calculator?

and yea, i even have narrative ideas about how to get tat stuff into the game without breaking the 'star trek' theme, you could probably come up with some yourself in a few seconds.
Yes it does need sorting out before it loses more people, I agree with that but at the same time it doesn't need changing and mixing up to favour 1-2 specific ship classes while taking a dump on the the other.

I liked the idea up to when he started saying escorts would need higher level TT to survive. Using TT2/3 should be a choice, not enforced, just like using ST2/3 and ET2/3 is a choice we make for better heals.

On the whole I prefer pwstolemyname's idea.
------
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.

Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,182
# 30
09-13-2013, 03:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pwstolemyname View Post
I also favor the rework of the team abilities but I would prefer that their heals be removed entirely.

As the intention is that we would most often use these abilities in the slots we have the most of I would like to use teams as a buff to the role of the ship we can expect them to be used in.

-----

Tacitcal Team I

Rebalances Shields
Removes and protects against tactical debuffs (AP Beta and Delta) and boarding parties.
+ 10 to: Starship Energy Weapons. Starship Projectile Weapons. Starship Targeting Systems. Starship Maneuvers. Starship Energy Weapon Specialization. Starship Projectile Weapon Specialization.

Science Team I

Rebalances Shields
Removes non-tactical debuffs, not including dots or subsystem disables.
+ 10 to: Starship Flow Capacitors. Starship Shield Systems. Starship Graviton Generators. Starship Particle Generators. Starship Sensors. Starship Subspace Decompiler.

Enginearing Team I

Rebalances Shields
Restores disabled subsystems and removes dots.
+ 10 to: Starship Hull Repair. Starship Batteries. Starship Electro-Plasma Systems. Starship Impulse Thrusters. Starship Hull Plating. Starship Armor Reinforcements.

-----
[snip]
...
@pwstolemyname
I like your idea, of just adding TT shield distribution ability to the other Team abilities.

The problem i see in this is that this would be a nerf to everyone else besides Escorts.
Engineering team that doesn't heal ships hull and Science Team that doesn't restore shield hitpoints.
I think both of them should at least get a HoT so they still would do at least a similar job as now. Give TT a damage/kinetic buff and it would look much better IMO.


So why not making it more like this:
Engineering Team:
Repairs disabled systems over 5 sec
Hull HoT for 10 seconds, higher hull heal than AtS but no damage reduction Buff
Distributes shield strength to shields receiving damage for 10 sec

Science Team:
Removes science debuffs for 5 sec
Shield Hot for 10 seconds, higher shield heal than TSS but no damage reduction Buff
Distributes shield strength to shields receiving damage for 10 sec

Tactical Team:
Removes hostile boarding parties over 5 sec
Removes tactical debuffs over 5 sec
Flat kinetic damage add to energy Weapons for 10 seconds.
Distributes shield strength to shields receiving damage for 10 sec


@bpharma
If done right, it wouldn't feel like a nerv, more like a extension of TT benefits for all Team abilities.
Of course Cryptic has the strange habit of nerfing things without giving ppl something in exchange.

Surely PvPers would have to adapt to the changes, but honestly every change will make SOMEONE cry "thats a NERF!".
The above proposal would mean as little change as possible, while making TT much less essential as now.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
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