Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,064
# 101
09-07-2013, 04:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jheinig View Post
In testing, just making GW2 & 3 benefit from Aux and GravGen allowed a science ship with 135 Aux and 150 GravGen to use GW3 against a group of five frigates and snare and destroy all of them. This is a bit over the top.

Borticus has been tweaking the formulae so that the power will be useful, and you will see improvements in your Gravity Wells from increasing Aux or GravGen, but it won't be over the top.
Well as a tactical captain (or even an engineer) can do that with tactical skills, what is wrong with a science captain being able to do something similar?

Even if we can't have that power for the investment stated in your post, can we at least have the snare please? Just so that NPCs can't look at it and go "Hey look, a pretty..." and continue on their path unhindered?
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,259
# 102
09-07-2013, 04:38 PM
As an escort captain and in all fairness to science captains, they have a serious damage handicap as it is if they use a sci ship. Be nice to them as far as damage goes to science skills.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,259
# 103
09-07-2013, 05:06 PM
I'm going to clarify my last post. It seems there seems to be some bias to giving sci captains too much damage from skills (when they have a serious console limitations on theirs ships) while tac captains seems to be benefited from all sorts of power creep every time something new is added to the game. The fact that a tac captain can take down STF cubes solo or handle a single side of no win scenario without any help is proof enough. I understand not wanting a single GW3 to take down multiple weak enemies by itself, but compare that to a tac captain just using GW1 and then shooting down a whole side of NWS (Wave 10 included) by itslef, and you can see sci captains keep being punished every single time because of fears of too much damage. Heck, you've left Energy Siphon 3 as one of those non-trainable skills probably because of fears of its power drains from sci captains that go overboard with flow capacitors. Funny enough , the way its coded, it's made to benefit people who fly sci ships the most. What I'm trying to get to is, don't punish sci captains skills because youre afraid of damage while not caring about damage every time you introduce changes into the game. At this point you can fly around in a ship with effectively 4 weapon procs while using a single type of weapon with all these hybrids and bonuses form sets and consoles.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,628
# 104
09-07-2013, 05:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucho80 View Post
As an escort captain and in all fairness to science captains, they have a serious damage handicap as it is if they use a sci ship. Be nice to them as far as damage goes to science skills.
Its not just a science captain using science skills, its just tactical abilities allow to do exactly what he said no matter what career.

A Scimitar Decloaking Alpha can annihilate a Breen cruiser before it can even start the energy drain attack and I know because I did it on a Sci captain more that a few times, having a Cmdr Science skill not destroying the weakest ship types on the game is ridiculous when a Cmdr Tactical allows exactly the same, at this point we have to wonder exactly what are they thinking when they continue to destroy science skills.

5 Frigates being killed in 3 minutes is NOTHING that anyone cannot do, if GW III is doing it then its doing what it should be doing, to me this is just a question of how long should it take as GW III should be doing this, especially when it have a long cooldown.
Former Star Trek Online Player
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 96
# 105
09-07-2013, 05:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jheinig View Post
To be more specific, Gravity Well 2 and 3 will benefit from Aux power and Graviton Generators skill now -- previously they didn't. The amount that they benefit, though, is being reined in from what it would have been if the powers weren't bugged.

In testing, just making GW2 & 3 benefit from Aux and GravGen allowed a science ship with 135 Aux and 150 GravGen to use GW3 against a group of five frigates and snare and destroy all of them. This is a bit over the top.

Borticus has been tweaking the formulae so that the power will be useful, and you will see improvements in your Gravity Wells from increasing Aux or GravGen, but it won't be over the top.

All other stats being equal, GW2 & 3 will be more powerful than GW1.
Like already some other did comment either civil or more emotional.

Where is there a Problem with a Commander Rank ability that is only usable on a already baseline tactical handicaped ship like a SCi vessel to do actual damage?

The destruction of those 5 Target would Need to see a se of circumstances to be fullfilled at the same time. The Ships Need to be stationary right at the Center of the well and the invoker of the well would have to set AUX to max aswell as invested countless skillpoints into particle Generators.

So considering that Targets always are moving and can't be at the same place at the same time the Chance of a full damage effect is almost even to null.

To repeat this the cooldown of GW and it's global are pretty much the longest there is in game making it impossible to chain on a single ship anyway.

so if i compare the effect with a Escort no matter what typ of Cpt in it TAC, ENG, SCi just a simple CSV 1 with APB1 or a CSV3 would wipe the same ships in less time with a possibility of chaining the power with just a gap of 5 seconds.

There is no need for heavy infestmend in any skills or consols.
No need to run a Subsystem powerlevel at a niveau you ain't would already.

So please either tune GW to the Point it is the Nemesis you said it would be or drasticly reduce the cooldown on it so SCi vessels can actualy chain powers at a reasonable rate like Escorts do.

As off now one of the biggest downfall of SCi powers is not that they just ain't work Close to how they are advertised but that the way to Long cooldowns make them to situational and do call for an extreme infestmend neither a Cpt flying a Escort or Cruiser would need to regardless of Class.

High cooldowns are just unfun even more with powers you can't use for most situations anyway.

Last edited by splitboy; 09-07-2013 at 06:37 PM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 195
# 106
09-07-2013, 06:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jheinig View Post
To be more specific, Gravity Well 2 and 3 will benefit from Aux power and Graviton Generators skill now -- previously they didn't. The amount that they benefit, though, is being reined in from what it would have been if the powers weren't bugged.
No problem. What existed before sort of worked, one had to spec plenty in AoE holds to get things to stick in the well. It took your whole ship (mobile+EWP+single ship holds) with an expensive universal (Graviton Pulse Gen) to make Grav Well work as a primary attack. Once everything was stuck though, it was a powerful, although slower than cannon AoE. Fail to execute the combination it sucked. It took skill. Lots of fun in PvE. Too many ways a player target could wreck it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jheinig View Post
In testing, just making GW2 & 3 benefit from Aux and GravGen allowed a science ship with 135 Aux and 150 GravGen to use GW3 against a group of five frigates and snare and destroy all of them. This is a bit over the top.
Depends where your Particle Generators skill is at, how much of your ship had to be dedicated to your Grav Well, how does it compare with AoE cannons not possible on a Science ship. Build an AoE tactical ship, see how quickly it wipes five frigates. Admittedly a grav well used like this becomes 'set and forget' sounds like an awful idea. At the moment I have many things to manage during my grav well (like not getting immobilized with EWP fly-through). My grav well was much more interactive than stationary cannon volleys.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jheinig View Post
Borticus has been tweaking the formulae so that the power will be useful, and you will see improvements in your Gravity Wells from increasing Aux or GravGen, but it won't be over the top.
By itself, a little adjustment would be fine. But the earlier dev post suggested you're making the power work better for people with no Aux. Unless you want STO's skies to be cluttered with purple blooms (not very Trekky but perhaps that's not important) then it's better if GW is something you need to build for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jheinig View Post
All other stats being equal, GW2 & 3 will be more powerful than GW1.
All other stats are not equal, the point people are making. A Tac ship can buff Sci powers more than a Sci ship, and those buffs also boost everything else. A Tac captain can take it further. GW1 should not be as effective as GW3. Compared in the same ship, you're not testing anything. Compare a Tac/GW1 with Sci/GW3.

Thanks for revisiting GW though, I appreciate your intentions and wish you find a great solution here.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,416
# 107
09-07-2013, 06:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jheinig View Post
To be more specific, Gravity Well 2 and 3 will benefit from Aux power and Graviton Generators skill now -- previously they didn't. The amount that they benefit, though, is being reined in from what it would have been if the powers weren't bugged.

In testing, just making GW2 & 3 benefit from Aux and GravGen allowed a science ship with 135 Aux and 150 GravGen to use GW3 against a group of five frigates and snare and destroy all of them. This is a bit over the top.

Borticus has been tweaking the formulae so that the power will be useful, and you will see improvements in your Gravity Wells from increasing Aux or GravGen, but it won't be over the top.

All other stats being equal, GW2 & 3 will be more powerful than GW1.
hmm maybe you should then i dunno.. have them npc's heal themselves?


dont get me wrong, i appreciate you guys fixing it, but also nerfing it at the same time? really?


just take science out of the game if you dont want it to do things. like others have said, tacs can kill those 5 frigates in half the time a grav well theoritcally could.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mancom View Post
Frankly, I think the only sound advice that one can give new players at this time is to stay away from PVP in STO.
Science pvp at its best-http://www.youtube.com/user/matteo716
Do you even Science Bro?
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,101
# 108
09-07-2013, 06:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by maicake716 View Post
hmm maybe you should then i dunno.. have them npc's heal themselves?


dont get me wrong, i appreciate you guys fixing it, but also nerfing it at the same time? really?


just take science out of the game if you dont want it to do things. like others have said, tacs can kill those 5 frigates in half the time a grav well theoritcally could.
Its not even just that a tac can. Let us take a gander at something very quickly.

DHC @ 89 Weapon Power = 1122 DPS roughly
/w CSV 1 Active = 1291 DPS to 3 targets I believe.

So a conservative estimate on the DPS granted from that Lt. rank ability is what, 2751 DPS per DHC I have 3 so 8253 DPS boost and that is very conservative assuming my DHCs are firing at full drain from themselves not counting my turrets no buffs active or attack patterns etc etc.

That is the effective damage potential of a single Lt. Tac Boff ability with 1/3rd uptime and they are telling us a Cmdr Sci boff ability when heavily invested in shouldn't be able to kill NPC Frigates? With a one minute cooldown no less...

Last edited by bareel; 09-07-2013 at 06:40 PM. Reason: grammer?
Captain
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 4,740
# 109
09-07-2013, 06:47 PM
Gotta agree with the sentiments here. Kind of annoying to get it fixed and then get it nerfed back down again.

Also, I do wish you would invert the formula so that base GW is useless without skill modifiers. Upper-range of hold and damage should be around 200 points of gravitons and particle generators, that gives room for 99 raw skill and another 100 for skill consoles, set items, etc. If somebody puts that much effort into it, they have nerfed themselves on other fronts to get there.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 96
# 110
09-07-2013, 07:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ursusmorologus View Post
Gotta agree with the sentiments here. Kind of annoying to get it fixed and then get it nerfed back down again.

Also, I do wish you would invert the formula so that base GW is useless without skill modifiers. Upper-range of hold and damage should be around 200 points of gravitons and particle generators, that gives room for 99 raw skill and another 100 for skill consoles, set items, etc. If somebody puts that much effort into it, they have nerfed themselves on other fronts to get there.
I am not certain if reducing GW1 effect below the actual state, and forcing either high skill and consol usuage ontop of it would help SCi in the Grand scheme.

SCi already is overloaded with hight skillcosts and need of slotting several consols just to make a subset of powers potent.

Compare it to ENG powers where this is just limited if at all the case and if you go to TAC not at all.

Nerfing GW1 would only result in it to be another useless SCi power and result would be another underused power ingame because simple TAC powers perform way better then this without any drawbacks.

At some Point there has to be drawn a line that clearly says what is expected of SCi powers to perform and compare to ENG and TAC.

As of now SCi Vessel that is needed for a GW2 or GW3 has less debuff potential then a Escort or TAC heavy BOff Station ship making the idea of a debuffer as what SCi vessel where advertised in the past just not true

Last edited by splitboy; 09-07-2013 at 07:12 PM.
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:22 PM.