Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 582
# 121
09-07-2013, 11:16 PM
Please make sure that the changes in Gravity well WON'T affect the singularity jump, is a common problem in this game that when something is changed, the change spread across other powers that use the same code.
John Sheridan@playhard88 - FED Tactical
Vin Naftero@playhard88 - FED Sciencie
K'tan@playhard88 - KDF Tactical
Argento@playhard88 - RRF Tactical (FED)
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,000
# 122
09-08-2013, 03:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jheinig View Post
To be more specific, Gravity Well 2 and 3 will benefit from Aux power and Graviton Generators skill now -- previously they didn't. The amount that they benefit, though, is being reined in from what it would have been if the powers weren't bugged.

In testing, just making GW2 & 3 benefit from Aux and GravGen allowed a science ship with 135 Aux and 150 GravGen to use GW3 against a group of five frigates and snare and destroy all of them. This is a bit over the top.

Borticus has been tweaking the formulae so that the power will be useful, and you will see improvements in your Gravity Wells from increasing Aux or GravGen, but it won't be over the top.

All other stats being equal, GW2 & 3 will be more powerful than GW1.
I appreciate the information. A couple of questions though.

1) Was this a GW buffed by all of a tactical captains abilities?
If so 2/3rds of your classes cannot hope to get near that level of damage.

2) What sort of level of gameplay are we talking about?
If a GW3 that has had a lot of points specced into cannot kill the probes exiting the gateway on Khitomer Space on Elite difficulty with some small AoE fire from a science ship then I'm sorry but it is not even close to comparable to an escorts CSV3.

3) Is there any plans to reign in just how silly some tactical captains can buff theses damage dealing science abilities or do you intend to keep tactical captains as top dog for any situation involving any and all forms of damage?
I have no problems a tactical captain getting the most damage out of weapons and doing the most damage that way but considering the tactical captains buff will affect both the ability AND the weapons it's a 2 fold increase to the damage levels other captains can achieve.

The problem to me is that with a long cooldown and taking up a VERY high level bridge officer slot it should be good but at the same time certain types of captain can buff it to a much larger extent than others which is where the problems begin.

If tactical buffs like attack pattern alpha, omega and other things that say increases your damage by 20-50% did not affect these abilities you would have an easier time balancing these skills as most captains would get the same or a similar amount out of the ability than the other. Kind of like what you're doing now by normalising the values, buffing the base and lowering just how much you benefit from extra particle/graviton gens.

4) Finally, is there a way to alter it's performance between PvP and PvE? If it did good damage in PvP where hulls are maybe 30-50k it won't do as well in PvE, especially elite, where hull strengths are much higher.

I can sense the PvPers coming to claim PvE is so easy you can do it blindfolded with only a shuttle and a mk 1 phaser. Be realistic, in PvE it's not about if you can do it, it's about whether you're useful and whether you're helping to complete it quicker or holding the team back.

The current record for doing all 3 original space STFs on elite is about 2 minutes 30s, this is 5 cruisers with mostly tactical captains. You couldn't even hope to get close to that with 5 science ships, don't agree then prove me wrong and I'll happily apologise, maybe 5 escorts but I'll never see science ships getting that on science abilities.
------
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.

Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.

Last edited by bpharma; 09-08-2013 at 03:51 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 653
# 123
09-08-2013, 04:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bpharma View Post
I appreciate the information. A couple of questions though.

1) Was this a GW buffed by all of a tactical captains abilities?
If so 2/3rds of your classes cannot hope to get near that level of damage.

2) What sort of level of gameplay are we talking about?
If a GW3 that has had a lot of points specced into cannot kill the probes exiting the gateway on Khitomer Space on Elite difficulty with some small AoE fire from a science ship then I'm sorry but it is not even close to comparable to an escorts CSV3.

3) Is there any plans to reign in just how silly some tactical captains can buff theses damage dealing science abilities or do you intend to keep tactical captains as top dog for any situation involving any and all forms of damage?
I have no problems a tactical captain getting the most damage out of weapons and doing the most damage that way but considering the tactical captains buff will affect both the ability AND the weapons it's a 2 fold increase to the damage levels other captains can achieve.

The problem to me is that with a long cooldown and taking up a VERY high level bridge officer slot it should be good but at the same time certain types of captain can buff it to a much larger extent than others which is where the problems begin.

If tactical buffs like attack pattern alpha, omega and other things that say increases your damage by 20-50% did not affect these abilities you would have an easier time balancing these skills as most captains would get the same or a similar amount out of the ability than the other. Kind of like what you're doing now by normalising the values, buffing the base and lowering just how much you benefit from extra particle/graviton gens.

4) Finally, is there a way to alter it's performance between PvP and PvE? If it did good damage in PvP where hulls are maybe 30-50k it won't do as well in PvE, especially elite, where hull strengths are much higher.

I can sense the PvPers coming to claim PvE is so easy you can do it blindfolded with only a shuttle and a mk 1 phaser. Be realistic, in PvE it's not about if you can do it, it's about whether you're useful and whether you're helping to complete it quicker or holding the team back.

The current record for doing all 3 original space STFs on elite is about 2 minutes 30s, this is 5 cruisers with mostly tactical captains. You couldn't even hope to get close to that with 5 science ships, don't agree then prove me wrong and I'll happily apologise, maybe 5 escorts but I'll never see science ships getting that on science abilities.

....Lets face it, sci can't be monetised unlike tac pew so I wouldn't hold my breath this will make gw anywhere equal to a csv (mainly as csv doesn't get slapped with kinetic damage issues regarding shields..changing grav wells damage to have a transphasic component would make it immensely more useful though..or heck, make that +30% damage from the stacking sci trait be transphasic type bleedthrough on all offensive sci abilities)

...as to reigning in tac abilities? that will never happen; tac and roms are stos cash cows - harming either would be detrimental to balance...the bank balance, I mean


regarding dual stats for abilities in pvp/pve, the devs have said many times they cannot/will not (delete as applicable) create such a system
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 450
# 124
09-08-2013, 05:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ursusmorologus View Post
Tacs have to specialize heavily in weapon skills *and* load up on Tac consoles and universal consoles to do top damage. I dont see the difference.
That is the difference. Like you say, these builds are a mirror image of what you say tac captains are doing, except for PG and AUX instead of weapons. The builds are the same idea, just thrown into different skills.

The proposed fix, will make Grav Well weaker than it is now for me and many other science builds that are specced, and the skill will be more efficient with less skill points invested.

For a tac captain that is never the case, because the diminished return on +dmg tac consoles is too insignificant to be noteworthy, and it applies directly to damage, not to the skill which then effects damage, and is thus a diminished return, like a particle generators.

And contrary to most of the angst here, all T4 ships and up can slot ApB1. And then throw in an abomination like the Fleet Luna's 4 tac conosles, and it's like why roll a SCI captain at all?
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,345
# 125
09-08-2013, 05:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by havokreign View Post
That is the difference. Like you say, these builds are a mirror image of what you say tac captains are doing, except for PG and AUX instead of weapons. The builds are the same idea, just thrown into different skills.

The proposed fix, will make Grav Well weaker than it is now for me and many other science builds that are specced, and the skill will be more efficient with less skill points invested.

For a tac captain that is never the case, because the diminished return on +dmg tac consoles is too insignificant to be noteworthy, and it applies directly to damage, not to the skill which then effects damage, and is thus a diminished return, like a particle generators.

And contrary to most of the angst here, all T4 ships and up can slot ApB1. And then throw in an abomination like the Fleet Luna's 4 tac conosles, and it's like why roll a SCI captain at all?
It's like you know about the secret 75% cap. Whoops.

But more to the point, there are no alternative Tac consoles. There are no "Pattern Consoles". There's nothing. You put in a plus damage or you leave it empty. I'm not saying anything else, just mentioning that as far as consoles go you really don't give anything up in Tactical, because there's nothing to give up.

Sci and Eng have several alternative choices, so there you can say there is some sort of give and take in a build.

That's all. TY for your time!
If I don't respond to posts on this forum don't be offended. I don't sub or follow any of them.
Captain
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 4,468
# 126
09-08-2013, 06:12 AM
I said 200 points for full damage, by which I mean a single grav well should be able to snare and destroy the the 5 frigates. Dont forget, Sci also has a lot of non-console boosts available, especially deflectors. A casual sci can get >100 points in both graviton and partgen with just 6 bars of skills and a couple of uni consoles, 200 points in each is hard but its possible with a mix of sci consoles, universal consoles, and deflectors.

And you know, there are no deflectors that give +20 ~disruptor damage (a couple of sets that give damage if you slot enough set pieces, but no single item).

The proposed method, where most of the damage comes from the spell, will mean Tac and Engi can use APB and make sci more irrelevant.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 450
# 127
09-08-2013, 06:40 AM
I only meant to draw contrast between a console that effects +skill, and all skills diminish, vs a straight stacking of a damage type, even though the concept of the build is the same thing.

Removing a particle gen for something else, will make it weaker yet, however more 'efficient' it would be in output vs investment, but if you want max GW output, you're going to keep it.

I would also be using many of the same universal consoles, and unless I'm giving up those tac console slots, have tougher choices to make.

If +wep damage consoles cap at +75% it's the first I've heard of it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 147
# 128
09-08-2013, 07:00 AM
The Main Problem is still that dps rules.

So they should change the stats of the npc thst way, that sci actually can bring something in and that it doesn?t take way longer if you solo npc?s with a sci ship then with a cruiser or escort.

Would be nice if they change the drains and npc?s that way, that you actually can drain s noticeable amount of an npc?s shield or energy if you use charged particle burst and/or tachyon beam or one of the other drain skills. They can adpat the stats for group play to make it not to easy the way they send in more ships now when you have more ppl doing an mission.

Atm i would say that non of the drains has an noticeable effect on the npc. I know that might have nothing to do with grav welll, but it has. If you change the other sci skills and the npc stats taht way that they actually have an impact on the npc, no one would ask for a high dmg grav well, cause you would have enough other skills that helps to get rid of them also.
Reynolds / Thokal

U.S.S. Helios -Vesta Class / R.R.W. Dark Science - Dyson Surveillance Science Destroyer
U.S.S. Donut - Fleet Advanced Research Vessel Retrofit
TheWiseGuys

Last edited by captainforfun; 09-08-2013 at 09:30 AM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 195
# 129
09-08-2013, 08:03 AM
The devs have not indicated the magnitude of any changes. We can raise possible red flags, but for all we know so far things could turn out fine! Nobody is "nerfing" the tooltip-listed damage as that damage was not happening. Dev advice so far suggests damage will increase.

Also, as Tac captains in Sci ships will have captain powers to do more damage than a Sci, that's what Tac captains are all about. Science captains manipulate (targeting subsystems and 'subnuking'). So dam[GW3 Tac Capt] > dam[GW3 Sci Capt], all skills and ship being equal. [Is this fair? -> Wrong thread.]

If dam[GW1 Tac Capt / Tac Ship] compares with dam[GW3 Sci Capt / Sci Ship] then delete GW2 and GW3 as pointless. On the other hand, if GW3 remains relevant then the Tac Capt can still do superior damage using GW3 in a well-built Sci ship.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,000
# 130
09-08-2013, 09:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by milandare View Post
The devs have not indicated the magnitude of any changes. We can raise possible red flags, but for all we know so far things could turn out fine! Nobody is "nerfing" the tooltip-listed damage as that damage was not happening. Dev advice so far suggests damage will increase.

Also, as Tac captains in Sci ships will have captain powers to do more damage than a Sci, that's what Tac captains are all about. Science captains manipulate (targeting subsystems and 'subnuking'). So dam[GW3 Tac Capt] > dam[GW3 Sci Capt], all skills and ship being equal. [Is this fair? -> Wrong thread.]

If dam[GW1 Tac Capt / Tac Ship] compares with dam[GW3 Sci Capt / Sci Ship] then delete GW2 and GW3 as pointless. On the other hand, if GW3 remains relevant then the Tac Capt can still do superior damage using GW3 in a well-built Sci ship.
I do in some ways agree with this, the problem is the magnitude of difference in damage and how irrelevant it makes the damage aspect to other captains. This means it has to be balanced against the extreme numbers only 1 captain type is capable of through buffs, stacking and buff stacking. Which then leaves the other 2 captain classes with not even a 2nd rate version but a 3rd rate version of damage from the skill.

I do think tactical captains should get more out of it but they shouldn't get so much more that it causes other captain classes to get almost nothing out of it. I would say 25% more damage for a tactical captain to get out of GW, all things being equal, sounds about right. We'll just have to wait and see.
------
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.

Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:25 PM.