Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,233
# 191
09-09-2013, 10:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucho80 View Post
I do have a question though.

Tyken's Rift needs you to spec a tier 3 and a tier 1 science skill plus Aux
Gravity Well needs you to spec two tier 3 skills plus Aux

Why was the damage on the high end for gravity well scaled back when specializing in it requires more?

I can field this one The breakage of Tyken's is what made my build what it is today, so I can certainly tell you what I gained.

To make a drain build worth it, you not only need to have skills spent, but also heavily invest in your consoles, deflector, set bonuses, whatever to make it worth your effort. Right off the bat you are giving up your 3-5 particle generators, just to walk in the door.

Now, on top of that, if you are serious you are going to be using some sort of polaron weapon. Since there is no hybrid plasma/polaron you are losing the extra damage that you would get out of +plasma consoles in your sci slots. A further decrease in your damage potential.

The difference is, going for a maxed out Tyken's will leave your opponents open to all sorts of abuse from your team mates, but a particle generator build you can set them up and knock them down yourself if they let things get too out of hand.

Do I agree with the numbers? Hell, I don't even know them yet! But, I certainly understand the differences in the skills. They really are apples and oranges.
I once again match my character. Behold the power of PINK!

Vice Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 869
# 192
09-09-2013, 10:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by milandare View Post
As a highest-Aux (130), highest-Particle Generators (245) player, I expect I am getting nerfed. I don't rely on Graviton Generators (only 132) because I kamikaze with Eject Warp Plasma and have a tractor beam. Of course there's lots of other things I'm not doing as a result of building this way.

Azure Nebula Rescue has handy clumps (so long as I avoid getting webbed) so of course my ship shines there. The cooldown also isn't felt as most of the mission is spent flying between encounters. It's still faster to stealth in and free the ships than to shoot them solo. It takes me up to 20 seconds to clear a group that includes a Recluse. Two Recluses is a just slightly slower (almost everything I do is AoE), and a Tarantula is far slower, lasting at least two gravity wells at global cooldown (assuming Photonic Officer is in an up cycle). Reading my riot ACT shows some of these stats. I usually save the weaker hostage ships by myself so everyone else can hit the hard targets.

GW is still only as much damage as my EWP, not much more than my torpedo spreads. And has the longest cooldown. Maybe that will dilute the loss I'll feel from GW. It was a good enough ability.

For all that this might look "OP" I only get 1st place in SB24 if everyone else is decidely lame. I do 2/3 of the damage of better built ships there. And that event has crowds.
I do not see how you are being "nerfed". It seems like the damage done by Gravity Well II and III is being increased, regardless of your AUX level. It seems like there are diminishing returns as it does not scale linearly, but you should still be doing a lot more damage than you were before.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 195
# 193
09-09-2013, 10:50 PM
GW is getting better overall, at least better pull overall. Aux and Grav Gens will improve it. Other players will benefit from enemies closer to the Well than before - a high-Particle Gens player might even do more damage, despite getting less effect of the Particle Generators. Particle Generators impact is diminishing:

Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
If it means anything to you then: They are being reduced from .5 to .25
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
In order to offset this decrease, the base damage has been increased by a good amount across all ranks. This should result in a notable increase to baseline performance, and a decrease to high-end performance.
My enemies stick in my gravity wells already. So I'm nerfed. I don't expect anyone to care about me, the fool in the Fleet Olympic, just making an early deduction based on published information.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 7,166
# 194
09-09-2013, 11:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
All fixed.

Tyken's Rift III is now pretty devastating when properly skilled and Aux'd up. Possibly too much so, but since it requires a fairly substantial investment to power it up so high... I left it where it is, for now.

Testing feedback will be most appreciated, when this change lands on Tribble. Please keep an eye out for the patch notes.
this is great, you guys are giveing sci a new leash on life, a big chunk of sci skills is worth using again! drain builds have what they have back what they have been missing, and a powerful control and damage is back as well.

now theres just shield strips left that are in bad shape. i recommend adding resistance debuffs
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 14,463
# 195
09-09-2013, 11:42 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this may clear up the concerns by some that it is a nerf:

1) GW2/3 was not doing the listed damage.
2) Aux was not contributing to the damage correctly.
3) Fixing the Aux contribution resulted in GW2/3 doing more damage than intended.
4) Reducing the Aux/Part contribution results in doing near listed/intended damage.
5) Players did not experience #3. It was internal.
6) The combination of #3 & #4 result in GW2/3 doing near listed/intended damage.
7) Since GW2/3 were not doing near listed/intended damage, this is actually a buff (fix).
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 869
# 196
09-09-2013, 11:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this may clear up the concerns by some that it is a nerf:

1) GW2/3 was not doing the listed damage.
2) Aux was not contributing to the damage correctly.
3) Fixing the Aux contribution resulted in GW2/3 doing more damage than intended.
4) Reducing the Aux/Part contribution results in doing near listed/intended damage.
5) Players did not experience #3. It was internal.
6) The combination of #3 & #4 result in GW2/3 doing near listed/intended damage.
7) Since GW2/3 were not doing near listed/intended damage, this is actually a buff (fix).
Based upon what has been written, I think that is all correct except:

3) Doing as much damage as "intended" (based upon how it was supposed to scale according to the description) was judged to be too powerful, because it could crush NPC frigates or something like that.

4) I think they increased how much AUX contributes (it was contributing nothing) but decided to not scale lit linearly, so there are diminishing returns whereas it was originally supposed to be linear.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,460
# 197
09-09-2013, 11:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
All fixed.

Tyken's Rift III is now pretty devastating when properly skilled and Aux'd up. Possibly too much so, but since it requires a fairly substantial investment to power it up so high... I left it where it is, for now.

Testing feedback will be most appreciated, when this change lands on Tribble. Please keep an eye out for the patch notes.
Hoo, boy......*Runs off to stock up on Tyken's aftershocks*
Take it easy!

Ishmael@scurry5: A Nibbling Sci
"Squeak?"
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 195
# 198
09-10-2013, 05:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this may clear up the concerns by some that it is a nerf:

1) GW2/3 was not doing the listed damage.
2) Aux was not contributing to the damage correctly.
3) Fixing the Aux contribution resulted in GW2/3 doing more damage than intended.
4) Reducing the Aux/Part contribution results in doing near listed/intended damage.
5) Players did not experience #3. It was internal.
6) The combination of #3 & #4 result in GW2/3 doing near listed/intended damage.
7) Since GW2/3 were not doing near listed/intended damage, this is actually a buff (fix).
I think "listed" damage (the tooltip) was determined to be too much (item 4). We don't know what was 'intended'.

Quote:
* The amount of bonus damage that Aux Power and Particle Generators give to this power have been decreased. This was done because they scaled too aggressively at the high end, when using GW3 with Full Aux and 150 GravGen.
Look again at Bort's post on page 5. I've already quoted that he said we may see a decrease to high end performance. My situation, not boosting Grav Gens (because it would be at the expense of Part Gens), is likely to fit in this category. You don't have to call it a "nerf" if you feel that isn't politically correct. But I shouldn't have to explain this over again, instead I will just wait to see what actually happens to GW.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 14,463
# 199
09-10-2013, 05:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by milandare View Post
I've already quoted that he said
But you didn't quote Bort...you snipped quoted him.

This is the actual quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
GW2 and GW3 were underperforming. But evaluating the performance of this ability across all ranks has caused us to tune them all, including an increase to GW1's performance under certain circumstances.

More details on those exact changes after these other questions are answered.

/snip

NOW, onto the meat of the changes being made...

* Ranks 2 and 3 now properly benefit from the user's AuxPower and Graviton Generators skill.

This means that, aside from any further tuning mentioned, these powers will see a universal increase in effectiveness for players that fly with 50+ Aux, and have any skill points in Graviton Generators.

* The Repel values of all ranks of Gravity Well can now be improved slightly with Graviton Generators skill.

The value shown on the tooltip will only change by about -1 or -2 with very high skill, but since this small change is applied every second, it will add up.

* The Radius bonus gained by Graviton Generators has been increased.

Double the previous bonus, at all ranks. Whereas it previously only granted up to 0.25km additional range, it will now extend the range by 0.5km at 100 Skill, and further if you manage to have higher skill than that.

* The amount of bonus damage that Aux Power and Particle Generators give to this power have been decreased.

This was done because they scaled too aggressively at the high end, when using GW3 with Full Aux and 150 GravGen.

** In order to offset this decrease, the base damage has been increased by a good amount across all ranks. This should result in a notable increase to baseline performance, and a decrease to high-end performance.

All of the core, unskilled damage values of Gravity Well will be getting an increase of about 40-50%. So if you never used high-Aux or high-Skill with your builds, your GravWell (all ranks) is about to become far more potent.

We reduced the multiplier that Aux applies to this core damage value. Where it previously scaled from 33%-100% multipier, it now only applies a 33%-66% multiplier. Meaning, again, that only high values will see any significant impact.

We also reduced the multiplier given by Particle Generators Skill. Attempting to give you the actual % values would be useless here because of the overall order of operations, but suffice it so say that it's been reduced. So, again, high-end users may see a decrease in the damage dealt by their Gravity Wells when combining high Skill levels with high Aux levels.

/snip
And that last sentence...considering that it doesn't work now, can't actually be a nerf. Even a potential decrease to the listed numbers would still be higher than the current actual numbers, no?

You need to go to the store. I offer you the opportunity to take a Ferrari with no gas in the tank or an old Pinto with a full tank. The Pinto will get you to the store...the Ferrari just looks nice, but it does nothing.

I'd say it's a case of letting folks like bareel, frtoaster, amicus, et al - hammer out at the numbers when it's on Tribble...to see whether there is a decrease or not. Because again, "may see" is not the same as "will see"...and again, since it's not working now anyway...
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,735
# 200
09-10-2013, 06:20 AM
Based on past performance. High end users translates into exceeding expectations builds, aka science ships with more then 25 aux, and maybe a pert gen consoles or a fitting deflector to buff GW3. Aka every pvp'er in the whole damn game, but not Geko.

Lower then 50 aux no consoles will be buffed, aka 100 Weapons power escorts, while dedicated (skill point, deflector, consoles, etc) sci builds will be nerfed. THis is 100% in line with what we have seen in the past. Bort's quote could refer to a decrease to damage displayed in the Tooltip, but an increase in actual damage, although i doubt it

@Bort. Fixing Tykens is so long overdue that its not even funny. I m looking forward to it. It literally can't be more useless then it is now, no matter what systems does. SO i have full confidence in your tykens fix. As for GW, don't get you hopes up sci captains, More power to tac....*yay*.

P.S.: accidentally decreasing the high end power bonus also hurts engs, but who am i kidding bringing them up anymore.
Joined 06.10
PvP 2010-2011
PvP 2012-2013

Last edited by havam; 09-10-2013 at 06:23 AM.
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:28 AM.