Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,264
# 1 No consoles & doffs stacking
09-10-2013, 11:00 PM
I know this will get some of the min/maxing munchkins foaming at the mouth but... I would kinda like it if consoles and doff powers didn't stack (or at least all had diminishing returns). Make players think more about their choices than "I must have all +x% damage to _____" or "I need as many neutonium armors as I can carry."

I've always liked variety in the games I've played. It's just sad that the vast majority of consoles and doff powers are pretty useless compared to the 'good' ones. So even if people wanted to do something different they feel handicapped by sub-par console buffs. Like...Why is the cannon buffing console so much worse than the phaser buffing console at the same rank and quality? Does Cryptic think the 'rainbow' boat would be OP if it got the same +x%?
Sometimes I think I play STO just to have stuff to rant about on the forums!

Captain
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,729
# 2
09-10-2013, 11:06 PM
I don't want to knock you, or your complaint, statement whatever it is.

But alot of cruiser builds REQUIRE console and Doff stacking.

The only way to keep my beam power levels from killing thier own power supply is stacking Doffs, and Consoles and abilities.

If they where to take that away you might as well never play a cruiser again.....
Inertia just means you can do Powerslides in you carrier!
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,295
# 3
09-10-2013, 11:17 PM
I dunno about no-stacking outright, but I wouldn't complain if they dropped it to limiit-3 on console types. Would help reduce the problems of things like over-stacked Grav Pulses or the gnashing of teeth over 5-tac-console ships. Shrink the gap between normal play and the people who stack like mad. Might be interesting.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,729
# 4
09-10-2013, 11:28 PM
The whole point if multiple spots is to make different builds.

Sure there are min/maxers out there.

But most people know the more stuff you put on the less it shows.

On my 4 console tac ships i run 2/2 tac consoles. 2 for my guns, 2 for my torps.

So what if people want to maximize a build. So what if people don't want to maximize their builds.

It's a choice and it isn't fair to take that choice away.

You have you DPS mongers who don't really get as much as they can out of their consoles.
You have the Tank guys, with the same issues, and then the sci guys who usually get the short end of the stick all the time.

Then you have people who use common sense, and put 2 consoles for a few things.

If my second Neutronium is practically worthless, why bother. you end up with a massive standiff with people finding little loopholes to max their build, to work the way THEY want it to.


But no lets make everyone on even ground and it all quite pointless.
Inertia just means you can do Powerslides in you carrier!
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,295
# 5
09-10-2013, 11:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by capnshadow27 View Post
The whole point if multiple spots is to make different builds.

Sure there are min/maxers out there.

But most people know the more stuff you put on the less it shows.

On my 4 console tac ships i run 2/2 tac consoles. 2 for my guns, 2 for my torps.

So what if people want to maximize a build. So what if people don't want to maximize their builds.

It's a choice and it isn't fair to take that choice away.

You have you DPS mongers who don't really get as much as they can out of their consoles.
You have the Tank guys, with the same issues, and then the sci guys who usually get the short end of the stick all the time.

Then you have people who use common sense, and put 2 consoles for a few things.

If my second Neutronium is practically worthless, why bother. you end up with a massive standiff with people finding little loopholes to max their build, to work the way THEY want it to.


But no lets make everyone on even ground and it all quite pointless.
I'm not knocking that kind of approach, but you get like someone who puts on a graviton pulse generator and 5 graviton generators, then disables people for 70+ seconds. Or prior to PSW3 getting nerfed last year, people stacking 4 particle generators and doing OMFG levels of damage with the thing. In cases like those, in normal use the power works fine, but someone overstacks it like that and it gets out of hand, then the whole thing gets nerfed to useless. Maybe if instead there was just a cap, if anything stuff could be buffed on the low end without having to worry about how absurdly game-breaking it would make the top end.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,729
# 6
09-10-2013, 11:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by reginamala78 View Post
I'm not knocking that kind of approach, but you get like someone who puts on a graviton pulse generator and 5 graviton generators, then disables people for 70+ seconds. Or prior to PSW3 getting nerfed last year, people stacking 4 particle generators and doing OMFG levels of damage with the thing. In cases like those, in normal use the power works fine, but someone overstacks it like that and it gets out of hand, then the whole thing gets nerfed to useless. Maybe if instead there was just a cap, if anything stuff could be buffed on the low end without having to worry about how absurdly game-breaking it would make the top end.
Those are the the jerks, trolls and griefers. And trust me they will find a way, another way, any way.

They are a pain, they are everywhere. they cannot be suppressed for long.....

So why hurt the regular guy because of them...?
Inertia just means you can do Powerslides in you carrier!
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 172
# 7
09-11-2013, 12:04 AM
Why are you two arguing? if you gave a few thoughts to what each other are saying , you'd see that you actually agree.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 131
# 8
09-11-2013, 12:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by reginamala78 View Post
I dunno about no-stacking outright, but I wouldn't complain if they dropped it to limiit-3 on console types. Would help reduce the problems of things like over-stacked Grav Pulses or the gnashing of teeth over 5-tac-console ships. Shrink the gap between normal play and the people who stack like mad. Might be interesting.
Just a point about tac consoles - they have diminishing returns already so there is no problem with that.

The thing is you have PvP players who cry nerf all the time, you have dedicated PVE players who love power( either damage of 100-125% power levels) and you have the casual player, who just wanna play the ship they like.

Consoles & doffs stacking is not a bad thing, it's when something new gets introduced and breaks or bugs the mechanic. Instead of trying to change your play style or change game mechanics because there is something you don't like or agree with just accept it, move on and enjoy the game, Cryptic will get around to it.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,295
# 9
09-11-2013, 12:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by capnshadow27 View Post
Those are the the jerks, trolls and griefers. And trust me they will find a way, another way, any way.

They are a pain, they are everywhere. they cannot be suppressed for long.....

So why hurt the regular guy because of them...?
Because stuff is already getting hurt because of them. Look at Science powers. Either baseline and they're near useless, or overstack and they get silly, with the healthy median a very fine line.

So many 'OP' things in this game are actually only broken when they're stacked with other stuff. Adaptive shields alone are okay(ish), but adaptive shields plus EPTS plus 130 shield power plus TT plus batteries, and you get an invincible slab. A2B + techs is a nice boost for building a versatile cruiser, but if you go A2B with a tac captain, FAW, APB, and some drain reduction, and you get 3-minute ISE runs and anyone NOT running that build having nothing to do. On and on.

And I don't think putting a cap on consoles or skills (like 3 consoles and 200 total on skill maybe, put captain powers on shared cooldowns, I dunno just brainstorming) would really hurt the little guy. If anything it would help him. For one it would reduce the enormous gap between low and high end, where you have missions where if you're 'normal' you have people telling you to get lost, but at the high end you're so far beyond what the designers intended that the mission has reached 'why even bother?' difficulty. After all, the normal guy isn't going to be affected by such caps.

Secondly, stuff would be less likely to be nerfed into useless because the high-end use pushing abilities way beyond what was intended. Instead of catastrophic nerfs making power X all but useless, it just becomes a shave here, a little off the top there, rebalancing the game as a whole without messing with the meta. If anything it might allow some abilities to be slightly buffed, since like the Devs wouldn't have to worry about someone buffing New & Improved GW with 300 in Grav Generators and turning NWS inside out.

I'm not suggesting 'lets nerf em all!!!' (except maybe the guys who are bordering on exploiters). Kumari with just 3 energy consoles (but maybe a torp console too!) would still be something you wouldn't want to stand in front of. A tank Odyssey is still going to be a pain to kill with just 3 field gens. And so on. What I am saying is that maybe if we did something to cap the high end and/or reduce the excessive stacking, we could reduce the gap between top end and not-as-skilled players, encourage more variety of build types (less one-trick ponies after all), and a number issues that people are screaming about here there and everywhere would be significantly toned down. I don't know if its The Solution, but I think trying somehow to deal with stacking as a whole would accomplish more than the usual approach of nerfing the heck of out things one at a time.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,729
# 10
09-11-2013, 01:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombiedeadheaded View Post
Why are you two arguing? if you gave a few thoughts to what each other are saying , you'd see that you actually agree.
I am trying to agree with him and add my points to his points. So there is a misfire somewhere that we arent getting it

Edit: We arent arguing we are Discussing like adults. We have made nods to each others points if you had read fully.

Quote:
Originally Posted by reginamala78 View Post
Because stuff is already getting hurt because of them. Look at Science powers. Either baseline and they're near useless, or overstack and they get silly, with the healthy median a very fine line.

So many 'OP' things in this game are actually only broken when they're stacked with other stuff. Adaptive shields alone are okay(ish), but adaptive shields plus EPTS plus 130 shield power plus TT plus batteries, and you get an invincible slab. A2B + techs is a nice boost for building a versatile cruiser, but if you go A2B with a tac captain, FAW, APB, and some drain reduction, and you get 3-minute ISE runs and anyone NOT running that build having nothing to do. On and on.

And I don't think putting a cap on consoles or skills (like 3 consoles and 200 total on skill maybe, put captain powers on shared cooldowns, I dunno just brainstorming) would really hurt the little guy. If anything it would help him. For one it would reduce the enormous gap between low and high end, where you have missions where if you're 'normal' you have people telling you to get lost, but at the high end you're so far beyond what the designers intended that the mission has reached 'why even bother?' difficulty. After all, the normal guy isn't going to be affected by such caps.

Secondly, stuff would be less likely to be nerfed into useless because the high-end use pushing abilities way beyond what was intended. Instead of catastrophic nerfs making power X all but useless, it just becomes a shave here, a little off the top there, rebalancing the game as a whole without messing with the meta. If anything it might allow some abilities to be slightly buffed, since like the Devs wouldn't have to worry about someone buffing New & Improved GW with 300 in Grav Generators and turning NWS inside out.

I'm not suggesting 'lets nerf em all!!!' (except maybe the guys who are bordering on exploiters). Kumari with just 3 energy consoles (but maybe a torp console too!) would still be something you wouldn't want to stand in front of. A tank Odyssey is still going to be a pain to kill with just 3 field gens. And so on. What I am saying is that maybe if we did something to cap the high end and/or reduce the excessive stacking, we could reduce the gap between top end and not-as-skilled players, encourage more variety of build types (less one-trick ponies after all), and a number issues that people are screaming about here there and everywhere would be significantly toned down. I don't know if its The Solution, but I think trying somehow to deal with stacking as a whole would accomplish more than the usual approach of nerfing the heck of out things one at a time.
I agree here mostly.

Yes science gets hurt a lot. And ive said that before. And if you build primarily into science it becomes a destructive force to be reckoned with. I use Science ships all the time with my Tac captain. Because i enjoy the Drains and Control. Do i abuse it? No but then again i mainly PvE where these things are Supposed to shine.

Engineering ships are meant to be those indestructable slabs you mentioned. My Galaxy was one for awhile. Until i changed my build around to be one of those Evil Tac captains using A2B. But again i work with my team in PvE's.

There are desings that make ships OP, and there are people who couldn't make a good build to save their lives. I used to have really crummy builds myself and be a bane to people. But i learned, with the help of my Fleet and the Forums.

If you see someone faltering it may not be their fault, maybe they are inexperienced. But thats how the game is played, New and fresh and old and grizzled veterans. Its our job not to yell at them and tell them how horrible they are but to help them as much as we can and direct them to where they can get more help.

I could really go on and on. But the concept is that we have this RPG Trinity and nothing to do with it. Tanks, Healers, DPS, Control

I feel like people silly and over the top builds add to the game, crazy concepts, Indestructible Escorts and Glass Cannon Cruisers. It's really funny to see what we did with our ships cause there is no reason to stick to one style. Abd even with a Reason those ideas would still be great.

In PvP you have a whole different issue, and that will happen always.

Maybe instead of the new people and the veterans getting mad. Tiered PvP.

You have "Beginner" for new and inexpeienced players to test the waters and become accustomed to how it works.

You have "Regular" for those who know what they are doing and want to have fun, and a challenge.

And then "Elite" for those who go over the top.

and to even things out it auto enables restrictions.

"Beginner" sets your stuff, (consoles, gear and the like) to Mk X. So ican go into that with my fleet gear, but i dont have an overwhelming advantage.

"Regular" would be tougher to sort. Any ideas on that?

"Elite" No Holds Barred. Every Dirty Trick Allowed.

But a system like that if implemented, could theoretically work. Everyone starts in "Beginner" after you have completed X missions you are allowed access to "Regular".

So on and so forth. This way people can hop into begginer and have an almost level playing field. "Regular" crowd being too rowdy? hop down to the "Beginner"

And "Elite" you should know what you are getting into. And complaining just means you werent prepared.

My 200.02 EC worth of Advice.
Inertia just means you can do Powerslides in you carrier!
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
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