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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,354
Wonder what the route cause of this super spike and super dem is?

Instead of adding cool downs for double tap, just drastically tone down Marion doff. That's what made super spike possible, not the double tap in itself.

The Marion doff is in itself the most op doff in game right now for any dem flying damage machine and double tapping super spikers.

Drastically tone down the weapon power drain resist by 66% at least and watch things fall in to an acceptable bandwidth.

No more uber double tap monsters and dem destroyers.

Kill 2 birds with 1 stone. Might even give an engi the ability to shine again for pressure damage.
aka NazHuggyBear2

"No, there is no real problem with P2W in STO. Obviously, if you fight against someone with an equal level of skill in the game, better equipment will give you an edge. But usually, it is the skill level that determines the outcome, not the P2W." - Sprinkles
Lt. Commander
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 135
# 2
09-16-2013, 06:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by naz4 View Post
Wonder what the route cause of this super spike and super dem is?

Instead of adding cool downs for double tap, just drastically tone down Marion doff. That's what made super spike possible, not the double tap in itself.

The Marion doff is in itself the most op doff in game right now for any dem flying damage machine and double tapping super spikers.

Drastically tone down the weapon power drain resist by 66% at least and watch things fall in to an acceptable bandwidth.

No more uber double tap monsters and dem destroyers.

Kill 2 birds with 1 stone. Might even give an engi the ability to shine again for pressure damage.
truth
/10 char
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,000
# 3
09-16-2013, 07:17 PM
Don't really agree marion is the cause, outside of double/triple tapping is marion OP? Not really, gives a nice 8s damage buff to ships using a lot of energy weapons.

It's the combination of BO with marion not one or the other but the 2 together. Also it is worth pointing out you could do the same thing without marion with a weapons battery. You had to be bloody quick or have a very tight macro running but it could be done to the same effect.

I only tried it out on NPCs as a proof of concept so I dare say it would be harder in PvP, maybe not for those more skilled but either way it was possible, but I suspect you knew this anyway.
------
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.

Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
Captain
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 4,969
# 4
09-16-2013, 07:18 PM
Marion is an enabler. People were doing the same with weapon batteries before Marion, but.... difference was it used to be even more difficult to pull off successfully.

And I can still do it with NI on an engi, but nobody cares because I'm not stacking APA/FOMM/TF
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,354
# 5
09-16-2013, 07:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bpharma View Post
Don't really agree marion is the cause, outside of double/triple tapping is marion OP? Not really, gives a nice 8s damage buff to ships using a lot of energy weapons.

It's the combination of BO with marion not one or the other but the 2 together. Also it is worth pointing out you could do the same thing without marion with a weapons battery. You had to be bloody quick or have a very tight macro running but it could be done to the same effect.

I only tried it out on NPCs as a proof of concept so I dare say it would be harder in PvP, maybe not for those more skilled but either way it was possible, but I suspect you knew this anyway.
Oh yes it is. Is it always the first choice in a bo build? Is it first choice in a dem build? The answer is always yes.

Are there any close alternatives? Not really. To make it more in line with the rest, cryptic should make it so that you need 3 Marion's to get the the level of buff you get now to give it the "if I use this, I'll loose out on that" catch.

The same way you need 3 Conn doffs for attack patterns, this doff should be the same.
aka NazHuggyBear2

"No, there is no real problem with P2W in STO. Obviously, if you fight against someone with an equal level of skill in the game, better equipment will give you an edge. But usually, it is the skill level that determines the outcome, not the P2W." - Sprinkles
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,000
# 6
09-16-2013, 07:59 PM
Saying it's a first choice in a DEM build is like saying PSS doffs are first choice in a PSW build, incredibly obvious. You're using DEM to do more damage to the hull bypassing shields giving pressure damage and there's a doff that helps with that and affects A CORE PART OF THE BUILD!? Well cover me in treacle and leave me near an ants nest, I would love to use that to enhance a core part of my build.

As for the BO build part yes it is because it affects the drain from BO BUT those that cannot use/afford marion use weapons batteries instead of marion to the same effect. Marion is something you would consider but it's only because it helps nullify the downside of BO and if you could afford it. If they removed BO from being affected by Marion we would still have the same problem of double tap as people can use a weapon battery and engineers could do it.

The problem is the ability to nullify the drain, the negative part of BO and fire another one in quick succession with both hitting for high damage in such a short amount of time with no downside which is countered by more than marion. They can't trust players to not abuse systems that counter this drawback that was intended so now they have to add the 5s between each firing.

Really if you're looking for someone to blame I think the saying "When you point one finger, there are three fingers pointing back to you." might come into play.
------
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.

Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 5,587
# 7
09-16-2013, 08:06 PM
I felt like this should be the nerf to Marion for a long time, Naz. I feel much the way you do...

But...one change:

Reduce the effect, but make it last longer. If it was meant to be used for beams (with their terrible way how they drain), then let it last longer over DEM. At least 15 seconds, though longer would be nice.

That would be a good trade off. Reduce the effect, make it last longer.

Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,354
# 8
09-17-2013, 01:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bpharma View Post
I only tried it out on NPCs as a proof of concept so I dare say it would be harder in PvP, maybe not for those more skilled but either way it was possible, but I suspect you knew this anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bpharma View Post
Really if you're looking for someone to blame I think the saying "When you point one finger, there are three fingers pointing back to you." might come into play.
Wow, really. Another one trying to bait? Grow up. So it's my fault certain abilities are op? I'm sure the npc's had their feeling hurt with your testing....

If you don't see how Marion is the single biggest enabler to some mega burst damage dealers, means 1 of 2 things:

1 you can't pew without one in your doff slots

2 you just can't see the way things inter link in the overall picture to create over powered issues.

If you remove this 1 piece in game / dramatically tone it down, you balance out 2 things overnight. How is that bad?



Not a bad idea mimey. Maybe take it a stage further and make it single beam array specific...
aka NazHuggyBear2

"No, there is no real problem with P2W in STO. Obviously, if you fight against someone with an equal level of skill in the game, better equipment will give you an edge. But usually, it is the skill level that determines the outcome, not the P2W." - Sprinkles

Last edited by naz4; 09-17-2013 at 01:20 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,115
# 9
09-17-2013, 01:25 AM
i'm captain horizon

and i approve this message.

have fun kill bad guys

-thrusters on full-
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 5,587
# 10
09-17-2013, 02:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by naz4 View Post
Not a bad idea mimey. Maybe take it a stage further and make it single beam array specific...
Nah.

Keep it to any weapons still, since there are plenty of folks who like using single cannons *cough* still want SHCs *cough*, turrets, and DBBs. Plus of course Klingon ships who can equip DHCs on stuff like a Fleet Vor'cha.

The DPS gain from it would be nice and it'd make it a lot more useful for cruisers to want to slot DEM, even just a DEM 1 for the DOFF effect. At least that would actually let the DOFF keep from what I think is it's purpose, namely to help cruisers/beam array users (though it helped em about as much as the BO DOFF does in it's current form).

The longer it's up the better I say. I would gladly be more willing to slot and use beams on a cruiser if DEM was there quite a bit to help keep power drain to be less of an issue. I would love for the length to be as long as DEM itself, but that is probably asking a bit much.

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