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Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,414
# 61
09-13-2013, 03:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by westx211 View Post
For a long time there has been a group of pvpers with 7337ist attitude in swtor it happens in sto it happens the problem is these people the premades so to speak ruin all the fun for casual players by basically stomping their faces into the ground. I'm sure the premades enjoy that. Many of these same premades will feel that simply because they do this they are genetically superior to anyone who doesn't do premades. Casual pvp play will not work unless teams are forced into a separate que than the single players.
I don't ever recall this games wing labeled as having casual pvp.

Why do you automatically assume it does?

Pve is casual enough, pvp shouldn't be.


Maybe they shouldn't let single players que at all? Maybe the game should flat out say "you want to pvp? It's dangerous to go alone. Take a friend."

Problem solved.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mancom View Post
Frankly, I think the only sound advice that one can give new players at this time is to stay away from PVP in STO.
Science pvp at its best-http://www.youtube.com/user/matteo716
Do you even Science Bro?
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,114
# 62
09-13-2013, 04:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by maicake716 View Post
I don't ever recall this games wing labeled as having casual pvp.

Why do you automatically assume it does?
Playing it?

C'mon, sure - folks can take it upon themselves to make it not as casual, but even there - it's just hardcore casual...it's still casual.

Rewards for winning or losing.
Queues with the option to join as a team.
No loss of anything if one loses.
No territory/resource control.
Nothing to fight for, no reason to fight.

How else would one define casual PvP?

edit: Note, that doesn't take away from the effort that fleets and the like have put forth into making more out of the PvP in the STO - but that's player effort - that's something they've taken upon themselves, that has value to them...it's not inherent to the game, which has very casual PvP.

I think about EVE, think back to Shadowbane, even AO back when they introduced Notum Wars - I think about pretty much every MMO I've played, and STO has the most casual PvP I've ever experienced. Which is fine, cause I'm 41 - going senile - don't have the reflexes I once did - play on a crappy old computer with crappy internet...and sometimes I just like to fly around going wheeeee....
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin

Last edited by virusdancer; 09-13-2013 at 05:32 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,675
# 63
09-13-2013, 07:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
It doesn't really matter how you want to spin it, you keep wanting to harp on a single tactic that has been in the game since beta like its suddenly on the level of using 3x Embassy Ground CD Doffs.

I've seen players using all manner of things in the queues, I don't really care, and I don't come to the forums to harp on it repeatedly at every turn.

Only when someone decides they want to ride in on a high horse - when even guys in their own camp are far from squeaky clean "PvErs", "Casual PvPers" or otherwise, does it provoke me to get involved.


I'm happy to discuss it in game so we can keep this thread free of unneeded drama. Something I didn't start.
It's not spin, man. I'm just defending myself against accusations of running team setups I have never done.

And it's not spin to say that a guy who was in the fleet before I even joined was using setups before I was even in the fleet.

Most of our premade formed earlier this year and is relatively small compared to even the Pandas, let alone the rest of my fleet.

Nova Core proper was formed from the merging of some PvE fleets, a PvP fleet and old-school 7th core.

The old-school 7th core is part of the guys in our premade.

It was the PvEers from the fleet merging, that were the ones running those stupid setups. And I didn't like their setups even when I wasn't part of the fleet, nor did our premade team leader for that matter.


Click here and here if you are interested in learning more about PvP.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,966
# 64
09-14-2013, 08:17 AM
@ussultimatum and crew

You fail to understand the average player and that is where my issue with your feedback and perspective I strongly disagree with. I am reminded of the Crystalline Entity open testing on Tribble where several devs made an appearance. After the entity was quickly dispatched the vast majority of the testers began to complain that it was too easy, not hard enough, etc etc. One dev had a response to that, those players testing were in the top 10% with great builds and gear. That event was intended to be a challenge for the average player, not the exceptional ones.

You must remember the average STO player is not an MMO vet. They are not a hardcore gamer. They are here because it is Star Trek and they will stay if they find it fun. They do not buy ships mainly because of its power instead because it looks cool or they find it appealing on a different level.

Their are two major stages of progression in an MMO and STO is no different. Stage 1 is the level up time where you enjoy your solo(mostly) experience and they attempt to hook you with the story and setting. Stage 2 is endgame be it PvP or reputation/STF type content where you hopefully stick with the game because you enjoy the gameplay and they try to make it so you always have something to do or look forward to.

A big places STO experiences the 'churn' effect, or looses players, is in that transition from stage 1 to stage 2. Where the player tries out a few STFs, perhaps a PvP match or three, maybe a bit of foundry, whatever, and doesn't enjoy the gameplay. It could be they don't like the lack of story/immersion, it could be the difficulty, it could be the more serious attitude of their fellow players or even the raised intensity of the experience.

Now obviously their is also the transition from stage 2 to stage 3 where they grow bored and quit or leave. Fortunately many players in that situation tend to return when new stuff is released. They already like the gameplay, just like all of us in this thread. We are not a significant part of the 'churn' problem other than the basic fact that very few people stick with one specific hobby/pastime/game for many years.

In the end the goal is to ease the transition from stage 1 into stage 2. This will ensure the game's longevity as the size of the stage 2 playerbase will grow much faster than it shrinks. And you can see this everywhere you turn they realize the current reputation system creates a 'barrier to entry' for stage 2 and that is why they are experimenting with a new one next season. It is why content like New Romulus exists, Nimbus, and the old focus on the Foundry. It is why new group content is designed for one exceptional player to be capable of getting victory for the team, instead of the old content where one terribad player can ensure defeat. This is why anything that destroys players before they can react in PvP is relatively quickly nerfed.

Infact I would dare say we hold Cryptic back more than anything. They are terrified of slaughtering some really bad 'sacred cows' of this game for fear of losing those of us currently happy in stage 2 even though it would promote growth.

Or I am simply delusional but anyone that considers anything in this game to not be casual oriented is simply kidding themselves.
Get yer Fleet Gear here!
Military 5 / Engineering 4 / Science 4
Starbase 5 / Embassy 3 / Mine 3 / Spire 3
Diplomacy 3 / Recruit 3 / Trade 3 / Development 3 / Research 3 / Operations 3
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/sh...1#post16435781

Last edited by bareel; 09-14-2013 at 08:20 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,414
# 65
09-14-2013, 09:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
@ussultimatum and crew

You fail to understand the average player and that is where my issue with your feedback and perspective I strongly disagree with. I am reminded of the Crystalline Entity open testing on Tribble where several devs made an appearance. After the entity was quickly dispatched the vast majority of the testers began to complain that it was too easy, not hard enough, etc etc. One dev had a response to that, those players testing were in the top 10% with great builds and gear. That event was intended to be a challenge for the average player, not the exceptional ones.
maybe then they need to have some content actually reserved to be built up towards?

events and end game content should be nowhere near as easy as it is now.

the stf's are the perfect place to begin this, the first one should stay as is.

the next one should actually be harder

the so on and so forth.

with the hive thingy being the hardest (ie- about as hard as the nws... which needs to be be changed... but thats its own issue...)


a steadly increasing pve challenge will teach new players that content doesnt have to be easy as pie to be able to be fun.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mancom View Post
Frankly, I think the only sound advice that one can give new players at this time is to stay away from PVP in STO.
Science pvp at its best-http://www.youtube.com/user/matteo716
Do you even Science Bro?
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,966
# 66
09-14-2013, 09:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by maicake716 View Post
maybe then they need to have some content actually reserved to be built up towards?

events and end game content should be nowhere near as easy as it is now.

the stf's are the perfect place to begin this, the first one should stay as is.

the next one should actually be harder

the so on and so forth.

with the hive thingy being the hardest (ie- about as hard as the nws... which needs to be be changed... but thats its own issue...)


a steadly increasing pve challenge will teach new players that content doesnt have to be easy as pie to be able to be fun.
In order for that to work the gameplay must be actively teaching the player how to be better. Currently this game fails completely and totally to teach a player anything at all really. Not only that but once again most do not want to become hardcore pro top tier players, they just want to fly what is fun and pew pew.

The players want to Kirk it up so to speak.

AND THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT.
Get yer Fleet Gear here!
Military 5 / Engineering 4 / Science 4
Starbase 5 / Embassy 3 / Mine 3 / Spire 3
Diplomacy 3 / Recruit 3 / Trade 3 / Development 3 / Research 3 / Operations 3
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/sh...1#post16435781
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,114
# 67
09-14-2013, 09:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
In order for that to work the gameplay must be actively teaching the player how to be better. Currently this game fails completely and totally to teach a player anything at all really.
Um...if the game didn't teach a player how to play better, how do players play better? Can't say it's from other players, because they had to learn somewhere as well...

...that the game stops at a certain point - one could say is the issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
Not only that but once again most do not want to become hardcore pro top tier players, they just want to fly what is fun and pew pew.

The players want to Kirk it up so to speak.

AND THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT.
That's why there are (and should be additional levels of difficulty)...

...if Joe Random, the Casual - wants to Casual Kirk it up, they can.
...if Joe Random, the Not-Casual - wants to sweat a little, they could.
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,114
# 68
09-14-2013, 09:44 AM
Very Casual (Casual's too hard!)
Casual (current Normal)
Normal (current Advanced)
Advanced (current Elite)
Elite
Gonna Make You Sweat
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,912
# 69
09-14-2013, 09:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
Not only that but once again most do not want to become hardcore pro top tier players, they just want to fly what is fun and pew pew.

The players want to Kirk it up so to speak.

AND THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT.
He never said there was anything wrong with that but why should that mean those who put thought into their ships and want pve to match should have to suffer for it?

If the player can't complete a higher difficulty version of the same content that's fine they can pew pew at their own level and that is great but what Maicake has said makes perfect sense, you keep going up difficulty levels until you find a point where your build can't compete at which point you either stick at your current level and have fun or you push your build to a point where you can see if the next level is more fun.

I think it would be nice to have a point where the AI makes good enough use of abilities that no build can roflstomp the given level of difficulty no matter how good the player is and at that point teamwork becomes needed, be that in preformed groups or still at the pug level.
Captain
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 669
# 70
09-14-2013, 09:47 AM
I hate to compare STO to BGO, but BGO is a game the is the polar opposite of STO.

It's PVP 1st and PVE 2nd. It uses a simple game mechanic. Ships have hit points. Armor adds hit points. Ships have avoidance. Consoles add advoidance. Ships have guns and missles. They do X amound of damage depending on what level they are. Its all very simple and it works.
BGO has almost no gear or ships that are completly useless and no one ever uses. This game is full of weapons, consoles, ships, armor, Boff abilities, Doffs that are completly useless in game and no one uses.
For a design team to have whole shops and stores full of useless gear in game with no plan or intrest in fixing them makes no sense.
Now dont get me wrong BGO is not a great game. That company almost never releases new content. But the simple mechanic and balance of gear/skills/ships works.
STO just has too many things going on at once with Passives, Traits, Ship and Gear bonuses, Crit D and Crit H numbers, DEF % and ACC % and on and on to where when one is changed the whole house of cards come crashing down.
So many post say the same thing as when the Devs fix one thing they break 5 other. I hate to say it but the entire system of combat needs to be looked at. Not sure if it can be reworked or if it is hard coded into the game and all the Devs can do is play with the values and hope to balance the equation.

Seems that the entire system is too convoluted. With all the different types of resistances and stacking and bleedthrough and on and on perhaps just striping it down and going with a system that even the most casual player can understand is what this game needs.
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