Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 382
# 1 Tactical Failbird...
09-11-2013, 12:38 PM
Hi, wanted to make this thread to open discussion on the new Tactical Warbird.

Let me begin by sharing that I tested the ship on Tribble, and had a very bad experience with it. It lacks Heals, or Resists, or any of the things it is supposed to have. Let me demonstrate by first sharing my Review, I posted this in the Feedback area, but was clearly ignored.

Alright, as opposed to calling the ship Garbage, or insulting it let me show you what my evaluation of the ship has shown me.

Currently I own every Romulan Ship. This has afforded me to chance to compair ships against every other ship in the sister fleet. As such I began testing this ship with the strict intent of Aux2Batting it. Since it was what appeared to be most effective on my Mogai (since it shares a similar boff loadout). I did however consider using a Science Ltcmdr but the lac of available Engineering heals detered that choice. It is also what discouraged me from considering a Ltcmdr Tactical officer seating.

Once my Choice was made, I began to evaluate Firepower. She can do just as much DPS as the T5 non-fleet Defiant. This is not bad, it means she can do the same DPS as the Mogai, even Fleet Mogai. This vodes well. I then began to test her manuverability, against other ships such as my Scimitar, Dhelan, Mogai, and my Fed Defiant. Which the ship performed on the same scale as the Dhelan, lacking somewhat the area on its consoles to buff its turn rate up. Hence it does have a disadvantage in this area. I then began to test the durability, which matches that of a mogai, except the low amount of heals available. It can accomidate, but must be forced onto a player. Which makes the Ltcmdr Universal not and advantage in versatility. Her Pivot point seemed OK, infact she pivoted very well to keep her guns pointed. Unfortunately, she only matches already existing ships. Not exceeding the expectations of other ships with comperable firepower is a black mark in my book.

I then began to see how her combat capabilites hold up, this included using the Consoles she could provide. For this test I did not use the quad Plasma Cannons, seeing as I was using Disruptor base weaponry. The DPS did indeed match the Defiant (Non-Fleet), and her turnrate felt OK when cloaked. I then began to experiment in using the Plasma Stream from her annihilation mode in combination with mid range alphas to determine its true usefulness in combat. (since in most PvP combat, the initial alpha strike runs a very high risk of loosing your target since the opponent most likely has all of his bridge officer abilites to call upon to evade.) I noticed it did to considerable damage, and even helped to melt hull once the shield had failed. The downside is it does about 45k Damage to a non resisting target over the course of 20 seconds. A rather lengthy time, in fact worse then the Scimitar's 12 second wait. The good news is you can move and use boffs while firing. So it is better in that respect. Downside is, it lacks the rapid DPS emission of consoles that the Mogai or Dhelan possess. Which both deal thier damage rapidly or do not require a consistent lock on the target.

I then began testing her tanking ability, which left me a bit surprised. Even with RSP instead of Aux2Batt, she will like to drop shields. Most escorts have this issue, but it feels more apparent on this one, due to the forced focus on Engineering. Which was not taken into account when they developed the numbers for her Shield Modifier. She is there for in my opinion vulnerable to Alpha Strikes. This is typical, but more extreme on this ship. The other thing that cropped up in her testing, was the speed of the ship seems to help her defence, but her speed is going to be limited during combat, strongly due to the lack of Tactical Bridge Officer Seating. Which at this point was becoming a real issue.

My final findings were, to recomend against buying the ship as is. It lacks the ability to fly as the ship it was intended to be. Which I thought was to be an escort. Her Tactical Focusing is comparable to, if not a clone of, the Mogai. Which leaves me with no real need for the ship. Can the ship compete with non-fleet ships? Yes, but recent non-fleet ships such as the Vesta, Scimitar, Lock Box ships, ect. all have a slight edge on it. Thus I would rule it to loose value in competing there. Its ability to compete against other escorts is also something to be drawn into question, as it is a ship that knowledge is required before you purchase. Since the first build that one thinks of, is very weak due to lacking survivability (Tactical focusing with Ltcmdr Tactical). In Conclusion (Yes I am aware of the terrible nature of using "In Conclusion" to end any arguement), the ship is less in capability when compaired to currently available ships. Thus the ship is Sub Par, and not a ship that one would expect to be available for Purchase. Since the ship would essentailly be Paying to Loose.

This was my full evaluation, every step I used to Evaluate her is in here. Please Read carefully as I tried to be very detailed. As for the ship being "Garbage"... 2 Years ago, it would have been effective, very effective. But today... It is Garbage.

Let me further break down what it is supposed to do. On the Second Post...
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 382
# 2
09-11-2013, 12:39 PM
"The Tactical Warbird class of vessels takes many of their design cues from the existing Escorts, Raptors and Destroyers of their allies. These ships focus on maneuverability and overwhelming firepower, and they are a great deal smaller than other Republic ships of their tier. And, true to Romulan fashion, these ships offer a good level of versatility and come equipped with Romulan Battle Cloak and Singularity Abilities."

What possible ship uses a boff loadout like this ship?


•Bridge Officer Stations: 1 Lieutenant Tactical, 1 Commander Tactical, 1 Ensign Engineering, 1 Lieutenant Science, 1 Lieutenant Commander Universal
•Console Modifications: 2 Engineering, 4 Tactical, 3 Science

It practically forces you to pick the Engineering as your Ltcmdr or you die instantly... Glass Cannon does not even define this. So much for the Versatility she was supposed to have.

Once picking Engineering as your second specialty, you loose some of what she was supposed to do... be Tactical... So much for Overwhelming Firepower...

•Weapons: 4 Fore, 3 Aft

Maybe she Turns well?

•Base Turn Rate: 16 degrees per second
•Impulse Modifier: 0.2

OMG they are selling me a Mogai again... It is really no faster then any ship the Romulans currently have... so Romulan Focus on Manuverability is kinda.... not so focused...

Can she Tank?

•Hull Strength: 31,500
•Shield Modifier: .9

Just No.

Well it was only ment to be a second option to choosing the D'deridex at Commander anyway. So no foul...

•Availability: C-Store

OMG!!!!

Last edited by vegie0; 09-11-2013 at 01:02 PM.
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 382
# 3
09-11-2013, 12:46 PM
This seems like a great buy.... /sarcasm

Well atleast it is new.

Dhelan Warbird Retrofit


Tier: 5


Type: Warbird


Hull: 31,500

Standard Shields: 4,964 (Mk X))


Shield Modifier: 0.95


Weapons: 4 3
Can equip dual cannons.


Crew: 450


Bridge Officers: Commander Tactical, Ltcmdr Science, Lt Engineering, Lt Universal, Ens Tactical

Device Slots: 2

Consoles: 4 Tactical, 2 Engineering, 3 Science (This seems Familiar >.>)

Turn Rate: 16

Impulse Modifier: 0.20

Inertia rating: 70

Ruh Roh Scooby... We got some real issues here.

It has a Console thou, that does unreal damage? ?

It takes 20 seconds to deliver it's full payload, and has to stay on target the whole time... Thats not bad, Mogai, or Dhelan don't do that do they...

Sabatoge Porbe, Similar Damage and does not ever require lock. (Dhelan)

Ionized Particle Beam, Similar Damage, is done firing in about 2 seconds. (Mogia)

Well.... That's That I guess...

Wait!!!!! It comez withz the L337 Quad Plazmaz thats are Connanz?!?

Yeah... they are the same as the Phaser, and Disruptor Quad Cannons.

My Final Evaluation of the ship.

Last edited by vegie0; 09-11-2013 at 12:58 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,390
# 4
09-11-2013, 12:47 PM
Here's my feedback from the tribble thread;


My Overall Feedback

Appearance/Model: I like the looks of this ship, nice design, the model's pivot point is too far to the rear. A problem we see repeated that affects performance, and has been an issue since the design of the original KDF Raptors.

The Axis/Pivot point issue with this ship isn't as severe as it is for the Mogai, but that's more due to the overall width of the Mogai which hinders that ships ability to keep narrow arc weapons on target in fast paced combat (PvP).

I really wish the Art team & Systems team could collaborate on this angle, because "base Turn Rate" is more than just a single stat like "16". It is very heavily influenced by the design of the model, the length/width and the location of the pivot point.


Stats/Performance: This ship is squarely middle of the road, it might be popular in PvE primarily due to the Plasma focus.


Specifics

BOFF layout: It doesn't give us anything particularly different or novel compared to other warbirds.

Being locked into Ensign Eng means you have almost no choice but to slot Ltc Eng if you are a performance focused player. There are other warbirds that already do this, and do it better.

So for a ship that is supposed to be "All Escort" it will, in reality, be another hybrid that is Eng focused.

Consoles:
The T5-R version (non-fleet) has
4 Tac
3 Sci
2 Eng

So we have a ship that is "pure escort", but it will have LTC Eng BOFF, Ens Eng BOFF except low on Eng Consoles.



Final thoughts: Unfortunately, due to the amount hybrids that Romulans already get, this ship comes across as a slice of a tiny niche that is already occupied by ships that generally do the same or better due to more streamlined design.

The Dhelan will be better at the Sci/Scort focus while having greater versatility.

The Mogai will be much better at the heavy destroyer role, being both versatile and durable.

The T'Varo will be better at the full offense role, with more versatility, enhanced battle cloak.

The Ha'feh is already enough "pure escort" with a better BOFF & Console layout for it.



Then, going beyond the standard.

The Temporal Destroyer has more versatility, better options, with a similar design but a much more durable frame (sans-battlecloak, it's biggest flaw).

The Vet ship is more versatile, with a good console load, and it's only flaw being that it doesn't have a fleet version.




Items/Powers:
I haven't fully tested this, so I will refrain from comment.

Although the Quad Cannon issue I mention, directly impacts any motivation to actually use/not use the 2 piece set.

The Quad Cannons are, sadly, saddled with DMGx4. Making it all but pointless in PvP, especially as these oddly still drain -weapons and -engines, which is really unnecessary.

Quad cannons for Roms, KDF, Feds should be added to the Fleet store.

1 per ship, and mutually exclusive with the versions that come on ships.

ACCx2 DMGx2 modifiers, useful, but balanced.
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 382
# 5
09-11-2013, 01:00 PM
Thanks for sharing your Review
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 9,269
# 6
09-11-2013, 01:20 PM
If you want to compare it, compare it to the Talvath.

Take a Talvath...Lockbox quality...and it's obviously going to be better without a Fleet version of the Ar'kif available.

But...Ar'kif vs. Talvath:

-1500 Hull
-0.15 Shield Mod
+50 Crew
-1 Sci Console
+5 Weapon Power
-5 Auxiliary Power
+Battle Cloak
-Manheim (Temporal goodies)
+Focused Singularity Modulator (2pc Ar'kif set)
-Warp Core
+Singularity Core (Singularity Abilities, 40base Subsystems)

Fleet it up, eh? (C'mon, Cryptic!)

+1650 Hull
-0.06 Shield Mod
-1 Sci Console or not? Fleet adds +1 Console

So sure, it doesn't have a Fleet version (Why, Cryptic? Why?)...

...but I don't get the complaints nor the comparisons to ships that are different.

Compare it to the Talvath (Mobius and Krenn)...

...as an aside, yes - beg Cryptic to do something with Quads.

edit: Wait, they went with Energy Weapons Specialization? That's even worse than the earlier thing...meh...why?

edit2: Still, it's made me want to roll a Rom Tac more than any other Rom bird out there. I just hate that they hate Torps. It was nifty to fly in PvE, but they should have just given it a flat +CrtH/CrtD bonus rather than making it Energy Weapons only...meh. The torp hate thing would make it the non-sale for me.

Last edited by virusdancer; 09-11-2013 at 01:24 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 739
# 7
09-11-2013, 02:03 PM
I think it's worth nothing that the 2pc set bonus not only adds +Plasma damage, but it also adds +CrtH.

So one of these full of Embassy +Pla consoles and loadout of RomBoffs could be pretty dang nasty.
The first we heard of getting new PvP maps "soon" was in August of 2010. We're consistently told something will be coming with the "next" update. Absolutely nothing has come to PvP since launch.

I think it's finally time Cryptic stopped stringing us along, don't you?
Community Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,626
# 8
09-11-2013, 02:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by praxi5 View Post
I think it's worth nothing that the 2pc set bonus not only adds +Plasma damage, but it also adds +CrtH.

So one of these full of Embassy +Pla consoles and loadout of RomBoffs could be pretty dang nasty.
Yes, it kind of struck me as odd that the op decided to test with disruptors when Romulans are so heavily optimized toward Plasma. I get that Plasma resists are fairly common, but does a fully-optimized Romulan overcome that disadvantage?

I look forward to someone posting the result of that experiment.
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Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 9,269
# 9
09-11-2013, 03:02 PM
It's just the Plasma Quads will be next to useless in PvP...no Acc...you'd need a Sci or two to park the target enough to hit with them at any acceptable rate.

You're also facing the issue that Plasma is all but neutered in PvP because of the growing popularity of Disruptors because of the Elachi, ability to stack Disruptor procs, etc, etc, etc...so more folks are sporting ResB shields. PDoTs are slaughtered by AtB builds maintaining an average of 150% uptime on HE as well as the addition of the WCE(Cleanse) DOFF.

For PvE, it's another story...

Even so, one could forgo the Plasma on this boat for what it's BOFF layout offers.

X, X, X, X
X, X

X, X, X
X

X, X

With the changes to the BO/HY/TS that are on the way, the more traditional BO/CRF or even BO/CRF/TSorHY build comes into play.

Something you can do on the Talvath...but...the Talvat lacks the Battle Cloak.

APA3, APO3, Romulan Ambush, BO2, CRF2, TS2/HY2...as a decloak attack...

With the LCdr Eng you can run RSP/AtS and DEM or RSP/DEM and AtS...something you can't get from the Mogai. Regardless of the weapons you go for...

When I saw it (before I started grumbling about the Torp hate) - I pictured the possibility for the ship in both PvP and PvE...

...the Energy Weapons Specialization thing just rubs me the wrong way.

Set Bonus: 2pc Harness...no PDoT love (when a Torp is one of the three pieces, really?)
Singularity Ability: Energy Weapons - Singularity Overcharge
Nukara Reputation: Enhanced Shield Penetration

This? The Energy Weapons Specialization?

The 5s gap being added to between uses of HY/TS?

Heck, how about the 75% kinetic resistance?

Need for PWO DOFFs for a decent fire rate?

I mean...c'mon...meh.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,390
# 10
09-11-2013, 03:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegeek View Post
Yes, it kind of struck me as odd that the op decided to test with disruptors when Romulans are so heavily optimized toward Plasma. I get that Plasma resists are fairly common, but does a fully-optimized Romulan overcome that disadvantage?

I look forward to someone posting the result of that experiment.

Unfortunately as Virus noted, its incredibly difficult to optimize using a poorly designed weapon like the Quad Cannons.

The other potential +plasma damage buff comes from the Rom Experimental set.

Console is good.

Beam Array & Torpedo, once again, have 0 ACC.
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