Go Back   Star Trek Online > Feedback > PvP Gameplay
Login

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 5,544
I enjoyed the discussion in the previous thread about damage-dealing powers. I'm also adding these 'Tipping Point' threads to my signature as well (including a couple ideas I've thought up for future ones, and as always, feel free to suggest more).

So, now, for the sake of keeping this thread at least on the generally same page so there's no confusion, here's my definitions at least of 'cheese' and 'OP':

Cheese: Something is cheese when an item or something grants a large advantage to your team with little to no skill involved with using it while having a proportionally large disadvantage to the other team, making it difficult to play against due to it also having few to no counters, especially if such counters are very limited in how often they can be used in comparison to the 'cheese' in question. Examples: GPG, TIF, SNB DOFFs (original form), SIC console, etc.

Bonus points if the thing in question is one or more of the following:

An AoE
A force multiplier
Can be used on a lot of ships
Is obviously broken/exploited/bug
Little-to-no opportunity cost for using it


Overpowered: Something is OP when it provides such a significant advantage that not using it is an absolute foolish move to make because you are gimping yourself and your team (possibly) without it. Examples: Tier 4 placate, Romulan BOFFs with double-space traits, Elite Fleet Shields, etc.



Now, something CAN be overpowered and not cheese, while something can be cheese and not overpowered, or it can be both, or even neither.

Remember though, this is NOT about what anyone thinks is 'cheese' or 'OP' or even both of those things. Or in other words...

Tipping Point: At what point is something considered 'cheese', 'OP', or both? And pretty much just as important as that, WHY is that thing considered 'cheese', 'OP', or both? What factors are applying to make people feel that way?

An example to get the ball rolling:

Graviton Pulse. Entirely unspecced, you can argue it is still cheese due to it's AoE effect, force multiplication, etc. But it isn't that long of an effect, so it really isn't truly overpowered.

However, add in even a decent amount of spec into it with Graviton Generators, and that few moments can effortlessly jump to 20 or more seconds from a single console, 50 seconds if you REALLY spec it. At that point, especially if chained, it is significantly more powerful.


Last edited by mimey2; 09-14-2013 at 12:57 AM.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,770
# 2
09-14-2013, 03:15 AM
more then 2 hangers present in a match just creates to much garbage on the screen for fun to be had, pets are truly the cancer of pvp. my fun tips into the red at times like that, and my frame rate goes into the single digits.
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,001
# 3
09-14-2013, 03:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
more then 2 hangers present in a match just creates to much garbage on the screen for fun to be had, pets are truly the cancer of pvp. my fun tips into the red at times like that, and my frame rate goes into the single digits.
This.

Was in a match the other day with 3 Scimitars with various pets, 2 or 3 sci's with photonic fleet, numerous nimbus spawns, all on top of regular distructables like torps and mines.

That was the first and only match I played that day. Very little fun was had.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 87
# 4
09-14-2013, 04:05 AM
I agree with the npc issue in PvP. Was in a match earlier (only 3 v 3 ) yet at one point there were more npc's on the field than players!
It's supposed to be PvP not PvE.

Another gripe:

Ability to swap out mods during the map - Soz, but once the map has loaded you should have a 60sec window at the start to fit or swap anything and then they're locked in for the duration of play.


Yep, I got out of bed the wrong side this morning! lol
__________________________________________________ ___

Beta player - forum knows jack as to when I started

__________________________________________________ ___
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 597
# 5
09-14-2013, 04:30 AM
Pets online
Now found frequenting MWO short term and then Star Citizen long term. Raged Quit PVP long ago
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,148
# 6
09-14-2013, 05:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by g0h4n4 View Post
Pets online
Later this month...Voth Carrier - stated a real carrier, thus 2 Hangars. Wheeee!
Vice Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
V.S.S. Oracle, D'Kyr-class Science Vessel
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,000
# 7
09-14-2013, 06:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mimey2 View Post
Remember though, this is NOT about what anyone thinks is 'cheese' or 'OP' or even both of those things. Or in other words...

Tipping Point: At what point is something considered 'cheese', 'OP', or both? And pretty much just as important as that, WHY is that thing considered 'cheese', 'OP', or both? What factors are applying to make people feel that way?

An example to get the ball rolling:

Graviton Pulse. Entirely unspecced, you can argue it is still cheese due to it's AoE effect, force multiplication, etc. But it isn't that long of an effect, so it really isn't truly overpowered.

However, add in even a decent amount of spec into it with Graviton Generators, and that few moments can effortlessly jump to 20 or more seconds from a single console, 50 seconds if you REALLY spec it. At that point, especially if chained, it is significantly more powerful.
I take it some of the posters above have difficulty maintaining attention, reading or don't care, so I have quoted a very integral part for some of you =)

For me the difference between cheese and OP is that something that is cheese has no/little cost to it. It is all benefit and a very significant advantage. While OP for me is when something gives you such a significant advantage that the disadvantage is not exploitable enough to counter.

For example the recent BO fiasco. With the right set up you could fire 3 beam overload 3's off within 2s which would destroy most PvPers and probably most PvE enemies. It had it's downsides so it wasn't OP/cheese but a lot of it was negated by DEM doff and a few other things. The ability to negate the drawbacks made it either cheese or OP, probably both especially as some factions could cloak and run negating more of the downsides. I'm leading more to OP though as you do suffer in sustained DPS a bit for that awesome power, just not enough for it to lead to a significant advantage to the opposing team.

This is not an argument about the cause of the BO nerf, if it's a nerf or contributing factors blah blah blah. I am using it as an example of why it was considered OP/cheese.

Cheese for me you've already discussed with the ferpect example of rom boffs with double space traits. No disadvantage to using them, all benefit and you'd be silly not to get 5+. Another example could be pointed at human boffs before LoR too.

Really it all comes down to what the counter is and what the disadvantages are to using said ability/console vs the benefit.
------
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.

Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.

Last edited by bpharma; 09-14-2013 at 06:13 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,148
# 8
09-14-2013, 06:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bpharma View Post
I take it some of the posters above have difficulty maintaining attention, reading or don't care, so I have quoted a very integral part for some of you =)
Or the five people that responded before you feel that petspam fits...

...just saying.
Vice Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
V.S.S. Oracle, D'Kyr-class Science Vessel
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,387
# 9
09-14-2013, 06:39 AM
Elachi conole,
Elachi crescent disruptor with 100% penetration proc
Subspace jump
BO plus doff
Pet spam and tractor spam
Rom boffs with double traits ... Clearly OP with no downside
Aceton assimilators
Captain
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 4,698
# 10
09-14-2013, 06:48 AM
OP is where the counter is weak against it

Cheese is where there is no practical counter against it
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:46 AM.