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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,100
I just found out about the Warp Core Engineer DOFF with a 40% chance to remove ALL negative buffs on EVERY activation of an emergency power.

Take a Tac with Aux2Bat in a Bug or other escort and basically whatever you throw at him from your cheese board sci ship is neutralised pretty much straight away. I took my undefeated Wells up against said bug and where I have beaten others I was rolf stomped, I couldn't work out why nothing I did affected him much, then he told me about the DOFF.

Is it time to retire my beloved Sci toon and stick to Tacs? Is this a total smack in the face to Sci captains? Am I overstating this case?

What are your thoughts?
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,991
# 2
08-23-2013, 01:00 AM
The devs have always hated Science. They have since 2009 and they continue to do so now. They hand out a Console that is a combination of several Sci abilities at the single press of a button, and on top of it, you did not need any skills in any Sci skillboxes to make it effective. Then you have this DOFF, which is a big issue for Sci since supposed "CC" is the last thing the skills can do, since Cryptic nerfed Science abiity damage 3.5 years ago.

The doff you mentioned is a killer for Sci because it has a chance to cleanse upon every activation of an Emergency Power to X ability. Which is quite damn often, esp. in a Aux2Batt build.

Cryptic just might as well remove Science from this game altogether. They nerfed the class' damage. They make it easy to resist our "best" skills. Hell, even in PVE, you have NPCs moving away from a buffed up Grav Well 3 as if nothing was going on, which is supposed to be one of our last great abilities even for PVE. They make it easy to just ERASE any effects Science can do with this DOFF. They obviously feel that Science is the "Third Wheel" in this date, and needs to get dropped. Just wait until more and more of these DOFFs appear in everyone's build.

Drop Science Captains altogether.

Drop the Science Skillbox portion of the tree altogether.

Drop any Science Skill altogether.

Drop Science Ships altogether, because there really isn't a point to them now.

Cryptic, stop doing this dance with Science, just drop this charade altogether that there are supposed 3 ship and character classes. Just drop it down to 1, like you know you really want it to.

Last edited by warmaker001b; 08-23-2013 at 01:08 AM.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 5,247
# 3
08-23-2013, 01:13 AM
Well, honestly, while on paper it can seem nasty vs. sci debuffs, remember what it is:

40% chance, anytime you hit an ETPX ability to remove all debuffs.

That's 1 chance, at most, every 15 seconds, TOPS.

Ironically, I've found that it's better at removing things like plasma burns or tac debuffs than things like VM or Sensor Scan. It's quite nice though when you hit it, and it removes something really icky, like a Graviton Pulse debuff.

Heck, sci (especially a sci captain), is really the best counter to this thing:

You say A2B builds might make it more effective, no more effective than 3 EPTX abilities, 15 seconds is tops.

That cleanse won't mean spit if he has longer cooldowns because of SNB stripping his buffs and putting everything on super-inflated CDs. Let's see A2B fix that if both his copies of it are on a one minute CD or something. (As much as I hate to say it and thus promote cheese in PvP, Scramble Sensors with the DOFF added in which adds CDs to all skills is also a good counter to it)

And if you know he can use an ETPX ability if you've been watching his timers, then simply hit him with a good ole full disable like a PSW or Tric torp. Can't use his BOFF skills if his whole ship is disabled, and you are guaranteed at least a couple seconds of him not being able to do anything about it.

The cleanse is also applied right when you hit (or maybe a couple moments after due to game lag) the EPTX ability. So if you see him hit an ETPS for example and wait 5 seconds then hit him with like a VM and other nasties, he has 10 seconds he HAS to just sit there and...

A. Deal with it
B. Use another cleanse off his ship
C. Wait for a teammate to cleanse him instead

Even then, this is all presuming that the DOFF procs in the first place, it's still only a 40% chance every 15 seconds.



I'm not denying what you are saying, more that I don't think it's quite as bad as some folks think. I find it a better cleanse for other stuff, like plasma DoTs, aceton beams (on the rare times I see it), Tac debuffs, the occasional universal console, and that kind of stuff.


Last edited by mimey2; 08-23-2013 at 01:17 AM.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 649
# 4
08-23-2013, 01:38 AM
I don't think it is that they hate science, if you look at the space portion of the game, you automatically go to red alert, your shields are always up and there is no disable for win, just kill for win. Kills are created from damage of weapons and abilities, control powers do not allow you to win by capture or force a withdrawl (denial of area).

In short they made a game that is tac focused because of the need to kill your opponent. If they created other ways to eliminate a ship than hull points, say warp core integrity that is lost with attacks to subsystem power and other uncreated but potentially offensive engineer powers OR computer core integrity that is attacked with each science offensive power such as viral, scramble, jam and also other new science powers then you would have something that is not focused on the weapons.

Star Trek is always its best when the story is multifaceted, but the concept seems to be to make a Star Wars game with star trek skins, terms, and characters.

I am not trying to be harsh, and I haven't quite figured out what is going on with STO, but doesn't feel like star trek, it just looks like it from a distance. Now I rant, but I still play it, and play it a lot because I like flying the ships and I like the look better than other games out right now and I have a fun group in my fleet. So it has entertainment value for me, but it could have been more Trekie and in that it would give more things for all the classes to do.
PvE Jem'Hadar motto: Participation Ribbons are life.
End the war with the KDF and FED, allow cross faction teams, as the queues permit.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 649
# 5
08-23-2013, 01:39 AM
An easier way to make the classes more useful is have pvp and pve missions where you have to repair or scan things and each captain and ship came with bonuses in time. I personally think the Tholian tractors should be lowered faster by a science captain or a science ship faster than others, and the combo of sci sci should be faster yet. Have pve missions like Traelus where there is a repair component out side of hull heals and eng/cruiser ships hold the advantage.

Similarly in PvP cap and hold points get capped at a rate of time that is influenced by ship size (max hull points) in the cap area, and other situational pvp that gave a mild, but significant advantage to other ship and class types that can't spike dps without further skewing balance or interest in tactical. Imagine if in ISE the jam sensor or sensor scramble prevented the gate from detecting your attacks on the nanite transformers and dispatching the nanite spheres. Not that ISE is all that hard, but if it were harder that time bought by a sci ship could simultaneously create unique value in the ship class and not remove the need for dps from tac escorts as the primary win condition. Basically increase the role and need of the support functions in the way the current game mechanics exist.

They key is to add more situational options for the two support roles based on this being a star trek combat simulator for the most part. Kerrat could be highly benefited by some tweaks that gave sci and eng advantages at different tasks assigned to the factions to win the zone. In doing so it makes future situational pve and pvp missions more involved and diverse in game play.
PvE Jem'Hadar motto: Participation Ribbons are life.
End the war with the KDF and FED, allow cross faction teams, as the queues permit.

Last edited by milanvorius; 08-23-2013 at 01:43 AM.
Republic Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,697
# 6
08-23-2013, 01:42 AM
40% chance every 15 seconds for an A2B, more like every 30 for a Bug.

The chance is high in my opinion, but the frequency is fine, and requires timing on the part of the debuffer to avoid hitting during the end of an EptX, the same as an alpha striker should time around Tac Team and FBP.
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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,991
# 7
08-23-2013, 02:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by smokeybacon90 View Post
40% chance every 15 seconds for an A2B, more like every 30 for a Bug.

The chance is high in my opinion, but the frequency is fine, and requires timing on the part of the debuffer to avoid hitting during the end of an EptX, the same as an alpha striker should time around Tac Team and FBP.
The frequency isn't fine.

How long are SCI BOFF & Captain cooldowns? Very lengthy, with BOFF ones oftenly getting to 1 minute or more. SNB is 2 minutes.

This DOFF is a big issue for SCI because everything offensive SCI does lands on the target. And this DOFF will let the target cleanse it.

It's not like TAC Attack Pattern Alpha, Tactical Initiative, or BOFF Attack Pattern Omega (end all be all BUFF and "Get out of jail for free card"). These abilities when used stay on the originating character and cannot be "cleansed" off a target. These BUFFs get used and greatly strengthen the user's ship.

But SCI is dependent on laying its damage and debuffs onto the target, which this DOFF cleanses away. A big issue even more when you are dealing with Sci BOFF abilities and long cooldowns.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 649
# 8
08-23-2013, 02:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by warmaker001b View Post
The frequency isn't fine.

How long are SCI BOFF & Captain cooldowns? Very lengthy, with BOFF ones oftenly getting to 1 minute or more. SNB is 2 minutes.

This DOFF is a big issue for SCI because everything offensive SCI does lands on the target. And this DOFF will let the target cleanse it.

It's not like TAC Attack Pattern Alpha, Tactical Initiative, or BOFF Attack Pattern Omega (end all be all BUFF and "Get out of jail for free card"). These abilities when used stay on the originating character and cannot be "cleansed" off a target. These BUFFs get used and greatly strengthen the user's ship.

But SCI is dependent on laying its damage and debuffs onto the target, which this DOFF cleanses away. A big issue even more when you are dealing with Sci BOFF abilities and long cooldowns.
You are right, the sci's usefulness is based on putting debuffs on the target. The tac's usefulness is based on putting buffs on them selves to shoot the target. There needs to be doffs that have a chance to remove the attackers buffs on taking damage your ship to be comparable hit to tacorts.
PvE Jem'Hadar motto: Participation Ribbons are life.
End the war with the KDF and FED, allow cross faction teams, as the queues permit.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 11,535
# 9
08-23-2013, 03:07 AM
It's just another "oh noes, I don't know how to build a PvE ship and the PvE is too hard even though I've got a million toys out the wahzoo and NPCs have been nerfed - please help me Cryptic" pile of garbage.

Hrmm, that was my toned down comment.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 620
# 10
08-23-2013, 04:02 AM
again with the escort BS topic?

a escort will most likely have 2 eptx .If a subnuc hits right after eptx that doff is useless ,even if it hits at the end of the cycle that doff is luck.There are 5 doff slots ,how many people use 4 doffs and 1 luck based doff?

Try getting rid of that ss3 doff or vm doff for the warp core doff....way less cheese with it ,even if it would proc 100% of the time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by warmaker001b View Post
The devs have always hated Science. They have since 2009 and they continue to do so now.
yet sci's are used as healers and debuffers ,most of the times you will see 3 per team...thats how bad they are.

Last edited by captainedna; 08-23-2013 at 04:08 AM.
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