Captain
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 3,395
# 41
09-19-2013, 03:58 AM
I have very mixed feelings on this.

For one thing I have been in this situation before, in other games (SWG most notably), where I would constantly be looking for ways to organize premade matches vs other premade teams. it was a nightmare because the queue system there was also a double blind like this one, and the community was, to say the least, much more immature and trollish.

So from that respect I totally get the mentality of the premade vs pug conundrum.

From the other side of the box, the premade group of players is a very small exclusive club in almost every mmo out there. The 1 percent of the 1 percent usually. So this would be designing a game mechanic specifically to cater to the smallest niche group within the game.

The post above mine illustrates this point "pro vs amateur." Quite frankly you cannot assume that because someone isnt a member of some known elitist fleet premade squad, that they are a bad player or pvper. Not only is that alienating to the player, but it is also frankly insulting (it did strike a bit of a nerve with me personally but that is par for the course as I am not a member of the aforementioned elite fleets)

What about players like me? Teamspeak users that do not want to devote the entirety of their playing time to organizing instead of just playing. I just want to play, know what I mean? Serious business is all good, but jesus I got burned out on that a couple years ago.

We are one of the largest fleets in STO (we have both a fed tier 5 with 500 members, and a kdf tier 4 with 450 members) but the number of hardcore PvPers is countable on one, maybe two hands. The rest of the members of the fleet are PvP casual or entirely PvE in nature.

Sisko, me, Zetto, Dexy, and a couple other people. You might have come across us, you might have rolled us 15-0, but we do run fleet premades in the queues all the time. But rarely do we have a full team of five on at the same time (normally its anywhere from 2-4 of us).

So what about us? And others like us? Are we merely amateurs that get stuck to the pug queues because the 1 percent of 1 percent "need" something more than the private team function?

Just curious, and hopefully this didnt come off as abrasive or even whiney as it seems to read.

Everything is OP, plz nerf
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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,250
# 42
09-19-2013, 04:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rylanadionysis View Post
I have very mixed feelings on this.

For one thing I have been in this situation before, in other games (SWG most notably), where I would constantly be looking for ways to organize premade matches vs other premade teams. it was a nightmare because the queue system there was also a double blind like this one, and the community was, to say the least, much more immature and trollish.

So from that respect I totally get the mentality of the premade vs pug conundrum.

From the other side of the box, the premade group of players is a very small exclusive club in almost every mmo out there. The 1 percent of the 1 percent usually. So this would be designing a game mechanic specifically to cater to the smallest niche group within the game.

The post above mine illustrates this point "pro vs amateur." Quite frankly you cannot assume that because someone isnt a member of some known elitist fleet premade squad, that they are a bad player or pvper. Not only is that alienating to the player, but it is also frankly insulting (it did strike a bit of a nerve with me personally but that is par for the course as I am not a member of the aforementioned elite fleets)

What about players like me? Teamspeak users that do not want to devote the entirety of their playing time to organizing instead of just playing. I just want to play, know what I mean? Serious business is all good, but jesus I got burned out on that a couple years ago.

We are one of the largest fleets in STO (we have both a fed tier 5 with 500 members, and a kdf tier 4 with 450 members) but the number of hardcore PvPers is countable on one, maybe two hands. The rest of the members of the fleet are PvP casual or entirely PvE in nature.

Sisko, me, Zetto, Dexy, and a couple other people. You might have come across us, you might have rolled us 15-0, but we do run fleet premades in the queues all the time. But rarely do we have a full team of five on at the same time (normally its anywhere from 2-4 of us).

So what about us? And others like us? Are we merely amateurs that get stuck to the pug queues because the 1 percent of 1 percent "need" something more than the private team function?

Just curious, and hopefully this didnt come off as abrasive or even whiney as it seems to read.
All I mean when I insist on 'Pro vs Amateur' is that 'Premade vs PUG' is basically a complaint about teamwork. Thing is, that isn't always what people mean when they complain about premades; so we end up arguing about the wrong things.

We can assume that good players at least understand the value of teamwork, or they probably wouldn't have come to be considered good in the first place; so 'Pro vs Amateur' still covers the 'Premade vs PUG' stuff, but also covers skill/ability level. Therefore I consider it a better fit for what most of these discussions are actually about.

---EDIT---

Besides, I can't help but wonder how many of these 'premades' we hear about really were pre-made? People just tend to assume a premade when they get stomped; but there's nothing to say they weren't facing another PUG that just happened to have better players in it. I assume that the word 'premade' is getting thrown around too much; and that it is concealing the real issues.
Exploration suggestions thread - give it a read

BTW, you'd pronounce it 'Cap'n Manks'

I protest the removal of exploration clusters

Last edited by capnmanx; 09-19-2013 at 04:39 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 735
# 43 Tal REspondessdklsdnipple
09-19-2013, 08:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lobstercat View Post
Has STO progressed to a point to split PVP. I dont do a lot of PVP but join to have a bit of fun and something different. I joined a match against a premade, who will remain nameless. As soon as they were known 3 of the team members just left saying it was Blah Blah and useless to try and no fun against them, then the fourth left just me verses the premade.

I must say the ship put up the good fight but in the end it was pointless.\

This is not to disrespect the premade's who obviously take the time to build their ships and hone their skills and tactics for PVP (except for the A-wipe who constantly gloated after his team annialated someone) But really is it fun knowing the outcome and annialation a PUG group that doesnt really work togeather.

I know their is the PVP camp which enourages and train for PVP participation but still without a group its still pointless Premade vs Pug.

What I think PVP needs is to be split into two queues.

1. The PVP Arena Queue as it is now where team members can join as Premades and fight other Premades. And individuals could aslo join. Basically nothing changes with the current queue. Premades could fight Premades and/or individuals.

2. A PUG PVP Arena Queue which you can only join as individuals. You cannot join as a team. Any Premade teams would be split between the teams allowing for a more balanced situation. They may even find themselve fighting their teammates.

This may also bring back players to PVP who basically avoid the PVP queue because of Premades.

Just a thought

I LOVE YOUR IDEA to each their own, and let them eat cake.

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Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 15,624
# 44
09-19-2013, 08:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by talzerotwo View Post

I LOVE YOUR IDEA to each their own, and let them eat cake.

But, but...what if we prefer pie?


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Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 735
# 45 omg roflsa moard nipples
09-19-2013, 09:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
But, but...what if we prefer pie?

American pie?

also Super Cake made of "moar powerful than cake, ice cream cake, and pie cake" put together!

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Posts: 1,272
# 46
09-19-2013, 10:01 AM
my suggestion:
FvK ground
FvK space
FvK warzone- similar to kerrat but no timers, no npc, no farming.
no FvF or KvK, no pug/pre queues

the idea of teaming cross-faction is not appealing to me. its not something that needs to be done imo.
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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,043
# 47
09-19-2013, 10:49 AM
I stopped PvPing regularly after the release of the subspace console. Yeah they nerfed it, but it was just enough to remind me how unfun PvP has become.

The Valdore console super healing romulan shields.
Romulan pets with scramble sensors.
Romulan boffs with CrtD/H.
Romulan singularity powers.
Danubes that spew warp plasma (or whatever it's called) and hold you in tractor beams while firing chronitons at you.
Web mines.
Buffed tractor beam mines.
Tachyon mines.
Nimbus pirates with extends and SNB.
Matches mostly made up of Romulan ships, Jem'hadar attack ships and Recluses.
Consecutive matches against pre/pugmades

It's just stopped being fun.
Previously Alendiak
Daizen - Lvl 52 Engineer - Eclipse
Selia - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,804
# 48
09-20-2013, 12:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by g0h4n4 View Post
omg took me 45 mins to do KASE today, stuck with feds with no teeth, the part that took the longest was the borg scimitar. It dragged on so long. Expecting FAW to kill the boss and kill probes is a joke.
lol, my a2b faw build has no problems melting probes and all the crap on that map. It's the funnest STF build other than some of Hus's crazy torp builds. =)
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 585
# 49
09-20-2013, 02:22 AM
To address the OP:

Yes and no.

It was time to split the queues when PvP was just a footnote on a design document somewhere at Cryptic HQ. Even if the group isn't a hardcore every-ship-and-every-BOff-slot-synergised-honest-to-goodness-premade, just teaming up with 5 players is a pretty big advantage over 5 random folks thrown together. I mean, at the very least, the queued together group has the advantage of asking/seeing what everyone's in and assessing their general strengths before they queue, thereby having at the very least the ability to accurately assess their strengths and weaknesses.

They've not been separated for so long now that I don't see a point in Cryptic revamping them short of finally deciding to get off their duff and and dedicate a full season-level development cycle to PvP in the first place.
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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 25
# 50
11-16-2013, 11:18 PM
I will have to agree with the OP . many others i play with feel the same way, we like to pvp and some of us are prety good, but when were playing alone and going up against a premade when your pugging it sucks. There needs to be a seperate q for people who are just pugging it .

I speak for a large number of players probably somewhere in the range of 1300 who are in several fleets under my command, and i dont hesitate to believe that they would feel the same way about this situation.

how hard could it be cryptic/perfect world ? also when are we gonna get some other types of pvp game play, for example: last man standing ect...
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