Career Officer
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 19
# 1 Morally Wrong
09-23-2013, 08:11 AM
I go into an STF (The Cure Found Elite). It starts with the statement that the obtional objective has failed - but according to forums it is still working as intended. I announce at the beginning of the mission, "If anyone is new - Do not attack the cubes until all 24 probes are destroyed." But of course, someone doesn't listen. The end result is massive amounts of raptors spawning - and of course the Kang ends up getting destroyed. That is the way it goes.

However, the mission then tells us to leave the map if we wish to redo the mission. Great. We have instructions to LEAVE THE MAP. So, what happens? We are then put in the penalty box for following our instructions. That is right we are penalized for doing what we are told to do. I don't have a problem with a penalty for leaving the map while the STF is still in theory achievable. But once the Server has stated that the STF is MISSION FAILED, and instructs us to leave the we should not be penalized for following those instructions. If a parent told their kid to do something and then punished them for doing what they were just told to do, it would be called abuse. If a business ordered employees to do something and then docked their pay for doing it, they would get sued.

But not only does it impose a leave penalty on the mission you were just in, it removes access to all other Borg missions. Again a leave penalty for leaving while the mission is on going is fine: 1) the player failed to follow instructions, 2) it leaves fellow players in a lurch, and 3) it is simply rude. However punishing players for following instructions, not merely with a simple - you can't do that one again for awhile, but taking away every Borg mission, is morally wrong.

Once the MISSION FAILED status is set out by the server, then the players should be granted the ability to leave without penalty. They should at that point be able to go and redo that mission, or choose any other mission they wish to attempt. To quote Michael Jordan, "I've missed more than 9000 shots in my career. I've lost almost 300 games. 26 times, I've been trusted to take the game winning shot and missed. I've failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is why I succeed." Do you think he became one of the greatest sportsmen in the world by being put in the penalty box every time he missed a layup? What would basketball have been like if they denied him access to every court for losing a game? You don't penalize people for failing, you give them the opportunity to try again - and you give it to them immediately.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 308
# 2
09-23-2013, 08:34 AM
I think that's unique to your situation, because you had the misfortune of joining late.

Generally, win or lose, you get a completion timer of 45m. I usually don't mind that even with a loss. On the other hand, you can leave without penalty if you've been in the match for at least a set period of time.

Because you joined just in time to fail, you were hit with leaver penalty for not being in the match long enough, which overrode the completion timer and locked you out for an hour.

Sitting idle for 3mins waiting for the instance to shut down might have avoided the penalty, but it's still a crappy situation given the timing.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,380
# 3
09-23-2013, 08:50 AM
I just wonder how a bug in the game is "morally wrong".

How exactly does this circumstance mean that somehow the programmers have made a decision based on the virtues of right and wrong.

It's a bug.
A known one.
One they are working on fixing.

"Morally Wrong" ?

Now I could agree with a statement something along the lines of this being a major bug that needs to be addressed.

But they have already done that. They've admitted that this is NOT working as it is supposed to. It stands to reason that a bug in one of their primary end game missions of this magnitude is being addressed, and we will eventually see a fix.

Nothing about the situation makes me question the morality of the team working on things.

Seems a bit of hyperbole to me.

But then again. This is the STO forums. Most points around here seem to be presented with hyperbole. But seriously, questioning their morals because you got hit with a bug while playing a video game ?

Some days, I just don't understand my fellow humans.

Edited to Add : This thread probably belongs in the Game Bugs forum, NOT in Featured Episodes and Events.

Last edited by hippiejon; 09-23-2013 at 08:56 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 19
# 4
09-23-2013, 08:51 AM
Then when the timer was over, it placed at least 4 people in a match that was already failed with the IKS Kang destroyed, and one person left from the previous just sitting where a cube was killed. I remained to try and play it out, but I am again stuck in a situation where if I leave I will get penalized another hour of game play. It is not unique - it also happened to 3 other players at the same time. The Server should not be putting people in failed missions, nor should they penalize people for leaving a failed mission.

One does not have to choose to accomplish an immoral act in order for the result to be immoral. That is why "the road to hell is paved with good intentions." As to it being a Bug, it is not apparently something they are working on or it would be fixed. This isn't the kind of thing you let happen over and over and over again.

Further, in my experience, Cryptic does nothing simply because it would be the right thing to do. Even when one has proof that they should for instance provide that for which one has paid. They even go so far as to eliminate access to notify them that they have failed to provide what is purchased so that one has to go through outside channels, such as the Better Business Bureau and Paypal to get their attention.

Last edited by wudwaen; 09-23-2013 at 08:58 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,380
# 5
09-23-2013, 09:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wudwaen View Post
One does not have to choose to accomplish an immoral act in order for the result to be immoral. That is why "the road to hell is paved with good intentions." As to it being a Bug, it is not apparently something they are working on or it would be fixed. This isn't the kind of thing you let happen over and over and over again.
Do you understand the game code behind the STFs ?
Do you know what exactly is causing the bug to occur ?
It isn't apparently being worked on ?
Why ? Because it hasn't been fixed right away , or quick enough for your personal tastes.

Fixing a major bug isn't some wave a magic wand and presto it's fixed.
It requires them reproducing the bug, then figuring out what's causing it, getting their programmers to work on fixing it, and once that fix is finished, testing and then implementing it, all the while paying close attention to the things that caused the bug.

That's an "I don't know crap about programming" description, but even with my lack of knowledge in how things are done, I realize that this isn't something that's gonna be fixed overnight.

You are sitting in here saying that the DEVs are somehow "morally wrong". You are making judgments about their values of right and wrong, by calling this a moral issue. Above you stated that they are paving a road to hell. You insinuate that their eternal souls are damned to hellfire and brimstone because they haven't fixed the bug yet.

How much more judgmental could you possibly get?

It's a BUG.
In a video game.

I get it. You're mad because the bug hit you.
But because you are hit with a penalty timer, you consider that reason to question the "morals" of the developers?

How about doing something more useful, like detailing the bug in both a Bug Report in game, and making a post that actually gives the details and information about everything that happened (in the GAME BUGS) forum.

You know, providing them with information that could be used to help solve the issue.

Last edited by hippiejon; 09-23-2013 at 09:43 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,311
# 6
09-23-2013, 10:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wudwaen View Post

One does not have to choose to accomplish an immoral act in order for the result to be immoral.

.
Actually you do. Please stop spreading what is at best misinformation, and at worst outright lies meant to mislead people. I cannot be sure of your motivation here so I will give you a chance.

You need outside instruction on what is and isn't moral behavior if you actually believe what you said is true. Take this as notice that your personal guage isn't functioning properly.

I'd wish you good luck and fortune, but I'd be absolutely lying.

EDIT: Although the OP could classify this as "A Slap In the Face". That usually gets a positive response!!!
If I don't respond to posts on this forum don't be offended. I don't sub or follow any of them.

Last edited by thissler; 09-23-2013 at 11:01 AM. Reason: Even Moar Coolness!!
Career Officer
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 19
# 7
09-23-2013, 06:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hippiejon View Post
But because you are hit with a penalty timer, you consider that reason to question the "morals" of the developers?
It is a shame reading is a dead art. Because an action is described as morally wrong you Assume that the actor must be classified as immoral. Rather than say, inattentive to detail. Your emotion is based on a logical fallacy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thissler View Post
Actually you do. Please stop spreading what is at best misinformation, and at worst outright lies meant to mislead people. I cannot be sure of your motivation here so I will give you a chance
Actually, I have formally studied Ethical Philosophy, and my description is completely and 100% accurate. The action of punishing people for following the directions you give them is morally wrong. While an adult may dismiss a unique event that occurs only to them once as something to be brushed off, when an event becomes recurrent and affects others dismissing it ceases to appropriate. While others, and especially the young who game here, are affected in multiple occurrences there is a problem. From your response you would condone a world in which people are ticketed or punished for stopping at a stop sign, writing good checks, obeying the Good Samaritan law, etc. By arguing that penalties should be imposed for doing what one is instructed to do you argue for a world in which that behavior is custom and then law. Is everything that will occur in one's experience going to be "fair"? No. Do we simply accept that as a reason to condone the unfairnesses which occur through inaction? No.

Nothing I stated was misinformation, it was related from direct experience - observational fact. Just like the fact that their support system only works in my experience once a ban on the account has been placed because they refuse to be contactable in any other way than going through a third party. They do not receive reports, claims, emails, or phone calls until one has to create a dispute through Paypal and go to through the Better Business Bureau. They ignore customers as a matter of course in my experience - especially if it would require a little effort.

So, my "personal gauge" works correctly. But then I do not expect a world run by the ethics of anger, pride, envy, laziness, gluttony, lust, and especially greed to comprehend what is actually moral. Relative ethics are merely an excuse to use these behaviors as guidelines for living and justify or ignore the consequences and harm they cause.

Last edited by wudwaen; 09-23-2013 at 06:57 PM. Reason: So as not to double post.
Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 376
# 8 Ok one, you are doing it wrong.
09-23-2013, 06:57 PM
The old method of destroying all the supporting nodes before destroying the Cube is an old method that had a variable success rate. Now most run RML, destroy one cube while one person sits back and protects the Kang from BOP. Then when the first Cube is destroyed that group moves over and takes out the spawning raptors, if the individual can't cover the other raptors on the left than 1 person adds support and 3 continue on the second cube. Destroy that cube and everyone focuses on the last cube.

This method is SIGNIFICANTLY more efficient and SUCCESSFUL than trying to destroy 24 nodes and then time destroying all the cubes at once and then rushing to the Kang to get the optional. Sorry TC, it sounds like you need to just update your methods.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,197
# 9
09-23-2013, 06:59 PM
dude...you brought up morality in your OP.....

and in the title.

...so yeah...... morality is a pretty big part of your topic.
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Career Officer
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 19
# 10
09-23-2013, 06:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dark4blood View Post
Sorry TC, it sounds like you need to just update your methods.
There is no updating a method to loading into an already failed mission with a destroyed IKS Kang.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cgta1967 View Post
...so yeah...... morality is a pretty big part of your topic.
At no point did I declare otherwise. The action is immoral. The behavior it represents is immoral. Those who argue against it argue for a world in which one is punished by the authority for following their directions.

Last edited by wudwaen; 09-23-2013 at 07:02 PM. Reason: To avoid double posting.
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