Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 398
# 41
09-30-2013, 02:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickngo View Post
I saw Star Wars (there weren't any sequels at the time) in the drive-in when I was four, three times (My mom was dating back then. Bringing us kids was her 'test' for potential boyfriend/husband material-it was the seventies, hey.)

as I got older, the movie held up. The un-remastered version STILL holds up. "For Kids"/"Not for kids" is kind of an empty argument-a well crafted movie can be "For Kids" without being "Childproofed" to the point of being Ferngully, while a badly written/directed monster can be annoying even with LOTS of "adult" scenes in it.

That said...something happened between about 1077 and 1986. "Return of the Jedi" wasn't as good a movie as "Star Wars" (mine own opinion, mind you-others can and do vehemently disagree.) and the reason is, in 1977 George was making a movie for ALL audiences, not JUST kids. By 1986 (ROTJ) he was making a KIDS movie with a few adult elements tossed in pretty much at random.

I speculate that the Cracked piece referenced in an earlier thread contains the germ of the reason why- George had enough money to tell the STUDIOS what to do by 1986, and a rep for blockbusters that made them WANT to listen. (between 1977 and 1986 he produced several big-profit movies for the studios-big profits, that is, unless you use Hollywood Accounting practices...)

The great difference is, in 1977 the Studio could tell George "NO", not only the studio could, but he could lose actors overnight, staff could quit and it actually, really could hurt him.

Like peer review in science, this kept him 'honest'-he actually had to WORK to get Raiders made, had to compromise to get Empire made.

There was some kind of Quality Control at work.

Flash forward on to 1999 and "The phantom plotline"-a kids' movie with all the good writing of a porn script crossed with hundereds of millions of dollars in SFX and product tie-ins.

In 1978, Star Wars toys were a tie-in to the movie. in 1999/2000, The movie was a giant advert for the toy line and licensed products, and worse, while George was smallfry with a building rep in 1977-88, by 2000, and making a GOOD movie actually mattered to his career, he was in his sunset by the time "Phantom Menace" was being shot-he didn't NEED to be quality, it was a paycheque with a guaranteed return for his retirement "No matter what''...and it showed. He obviously worked without a script editor, without anyone who could (or would, at that point-he WAS the big studio...) tell him, "That doesn't work." or "That's really not necessary", or "Gee, George, that tosses your continuity on it's ear/destroys the magic that lets the audience suspend their disbelief."

Put into user terms, Phantom Menace was marketing toy lines and coloring books, the only thing I remember from the second movie was seeing Natalie Portman's boobs eight feet high on the movie screen, and I borrowed Revenge of the Sith from a friend after it was released to DvD.

IOW, the prequels were slightly above "Star Trek Nemesis/Insurrection" and "Waterworld."

But only barely. The standard core flaw applies to them, as applies to other Special-Effects-porn out there: it doesn't matter HOW good your visuals are, if your script sucks and your actors can't sell it, the movie is a turkey-no matter WHAT age group you're aiming for.

An unrelated example, but it shows the kind of degradation...

Pitch Black-filmed on a shoestring, tight scripting, good casting, still gets positive reviews even from new viewers and it was made with a budget that would've made about five minutes worth of the sequel.

Chronicles of Riddick: Special Effects Porn. Weak scripting that blundered around and included incredibly unnecessary elements whose only purpose was to justify huge special effects and stunt action.

'Star Wars' vs. 'The Phantom Menace' is the same kind of decay, for many of the same reasons.
I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but I fundamentally disagree that the prequels were "childproofed."

In Episode 1 we see a man get gutted by a lightsaber and another man get cut in half.

In Episode 2, we see a woman who was tortured by sandpeople die in her son's arms, then her son goes insane and kills an entire village - including women and children. Then we see a man get his arm cut off and another man get decapitated.

In Episode 3, Anakin slaughters a room full of children, all the heroes from the previous films are systematically murdered, and a man loses three limbs then burns alive.

What in the originals was more "dark" or "hardcore"? I just don't see it.

Don't get me wrong, here. If you didn't like the prequels, that's fine. Nothing wrong with that. I just disagree that the originals were less "childproofed" than the prequels.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,700
# 42
09-30-2013, 06:53 AM
Well, for one thing, Scruffy, in the original movie Luke returned to the farm, to find it ablaze - and with two smoldering human skeletons outside. (Struck me at the time, too.) Later, in a bar fight, someone gets an arm lopped off by a lightsaber, and we see the arm lying on the floor in a pool of blood.

Fast-forward to TPM. Qui-Gon gets stabbed by Maul, then Maul gets chopped in half by Obi-Wan - but in both cases, it's sanitized. No blood, no intestines, Maul even gets to make a frowny face as he falls. It's as "violent" as two kids playing swordfight with sticks. And the same continues on - I haven't watched RotS for a while, but as I recall, the slaughter of the younglings was offscreen, as were most of the other deaths.

Point is, in the prequels all the "violence" and "darkness" were sanitized for your protection. Everything was cleaned up, so as not to bother the kiddies. Oh, and let's not forget those toyetic Gungans, who could have been memetic badasses (they had technology sufficient to create selectively permeable force fields, and hand-held plasma bombs - would that this had been explored). Everything was safe - which was decidedly not the case in much of the original trilogy, where pieces of a body could be lying about on the ground and even landing in an asteroid could get you eaten...
-------------------------------------------
I'm old enough not to care too much about what you think of me --
But I'm young enough to remember the future, the way things ought to be...

- Rush, "Cut To the Chase", Counterparts
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,744
# 43
09-30-2013, 07:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonsills View Post
Well, for one thing, Scruffy, in the original movie Luke returned to the farm, to find it ablaze - and with two smoldering human skeletons outside. (Struck me at the time, too.) Later, in a bar fight, someone gets an arm lopped off by a lightsaber, and we see the arm lying on the floor in a pool of blood.

Fast-forward to TPM. Qui-Gon gets stabbed by Maul, then Maul gets chopped in half by Obi-Wan - but in both cases, it's sanitized. No blood, no intestines, Maul even gets to make a frowny face as he falls. It's as "violent" as two kids playing swordfight with sticks. And the same continues on - I haven't watched RotS for a while, but as I recall, the slaughter of the younglings was offscreen, as were most of the other deaths.

Point is, in the prequels all the "violence" and "darkness" were sanitized for your protection. Everything was cleaned up, so as not to bother the kiddies. Oh, and let's not forget those toyetic Gungans, who could have been memetic badasses (they had technology sufficient to create selectively permeable force fields, and hand-held plasma bombs - would that this had been explored). Everything was safe - which was decidedly not the case in much of the original trilogy, where pieces of a body could be lying about on the ground and even landing in an asteroid could get you eaten...
I think you got a good point here.

In my opinion Star Wars always never was about showing drastic violence and realism.

But i think the mood of the movies fluctuated and became more and more child friendly.
While the original trilogy was like SW:V ; SW:IV ; SW VI from dark to suitable for kids, the prequels where like made for ppl at the age of Anakin on each movie. (of course within GLs limitations)

In the end most ppl at my age see Star Wars as something like a big toy commercial (especially the prequels).
IDK but i feel silly watching the prequels, they (especaily the first one) feel too much like a kids movie.

I just hope they make the new movies/series more like SW:V.
But on the other hand i seriously hope they don't go too far with it and making it like Stargate: Universe, BSG or some other "super depressing-realistic" drama - series ppl seem to love nowadays.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 398
# 44
09-30-2013, 08:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonsills View Post
Well, for one thing, Scruffy, in the original movie Luke returned to the farm, to find it ablaze - and with two smoldering human skeletons outside. (Struck me at the time, too.) Later, in a bar fight, someone gets an arm lopped off by a lightsaber, and we see the arm lying on the floor in a pool of blood.

Fast-forward to TPM. Qui-Gon gets stabbed by Maul, then Maul gets chopped in half by Obi-Wan - but in both cases, it's sanitized. No blood, no intestines, Maul even gets to make a frowny face as he falls. It's as "violent" as two kids playing swordfight with sticks. And the same continues on - I haven't watched RotS for a while, but as I recall, the slaughter of the younglings was offscreen, as were most of the other deaths.

Point is, in the prequels all the "violence" and "darkness" were sanitized for your protection. Everything was cleaned up, so as not to bother the kiddies. Oh, and let's not forget those toyetic Gungans, who could have been memetic badasses (they had technology sufficient to create selectively permeable force fields, and hand-held plasma bombs - would that this had been explored). Everything was safe - which was decidedly not the case in much of the original trilogy, where pieces of a body could be lying about on the ground and even landing in an asteroid could get you eaten...
The murder of the jawas was offscreen. The murder of Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru was off screen. Obi Wan died by disappearing. And the glimpse blood on the cantina floor? Never happened again. Even in Empire (the "darkest" of the trilogy), there was zero blood when Luke's hand was severed. This was because they decided by then that a lightsaber cauterizes a wound as it cuts.

And most importantly, the single most horrific and violent scene in all of Star Wars is from the prequels (Anakin burning by the river of lava). That scene almost landed Episode 3 the highest rating in all of Star Wars (PG13). Anakin lies on that bank and screams in torment as we watch what's left of his body burn.

Seriously, watch that scene and then point out any scene in any other Star Wars film that is less "sanitized."

Don't get me wrong here. I'm an OT guy. I grew up on the originals and they will always represent Star Wars for me.

And I'm not just being contrary here. I actually hate being the guy everybody disagrees with.

But I think if we're really being honest and look at the prequels and OT side by side, it's just untrue to say the prequels were more sanitized. They were crappier in many ways, but they were no more sanitized or childproofed than the originals.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11,077
# 45
09-30-2013, 10:36 PM
I agree with Scruffy. I think the biggest reason that people hate the prequels is that they had elements of the originals, but they lacked what gave the originals their.... originality.

Think about it this way, as Anakin lay burning in the lava, you probably didn't feel the way you were supposed to. In that moment, done in by his own hubris, he's dying in a brutal and horrific fashion, and Obi Wan, his friend, his mentor, the only father figure he's ever had, abandons him. And leaves him to his horrible fate.

But you aren't thinking about that. You aren't saying to yourself; "Oh, so that's where Darth Vader comes from". No, you're saying to yourself "YOU GOT WHAT YOU DESERVED YOU DAMN LITTLE ****".




And that, ladies and gentlemen, is what separates the OT from the Prequels.
http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o633/centersolace/189cux9khvl6ojpg_zpsca7ccff0.jpg

So inhumane superweapons, mass murder, and canon nonsense is okay, but speedos are too much for some people.
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