Fourth, I'd like to apologize for disagreeing on this next part.
Misfire != L2P moment, imho. The misfire to me is a bug. Just because something is consistent, does not mean it is not a bug. Heck, that's how devs are able to trackdown and fix certain bugs...because they're easy to recreate.
Consider the following...you can BO Aft. Yep, you can fire a BO behind you. Well, technically you can. Trigger BO, fire the weapon, turn 360 degrees during the activation, and the BO will fire Aft. Do that with a Torp...you lose the Torp. Meh...
There's the additional issue with the Beachball of the min range. If you trigger the Beachball but end up inside the min range (either because you closed the gap or the target did)...denied...no soup for you, one year!
Going back to Arc issues, mind you - the Hyper, eh? Only need to be in Arc for the first Torp, the other two will fire at the target regardless of what direction you're facing. With a fast turning boat, you can do that zippity spin action to get the rear Hyper to fire forward as you drop out your HY Omega P-Bolt! Ahem, yeah...anyway.
(Oh, speaking of the Hyper and why I just mentioned having it Aft - heh, I do that because I find it embarrassing to have it Fore and keep getting caught in the splash...ahem.)
Fifth, I'd like to apologize to folks that might complain about me on Willard at times during ISE.
Yeah, this touches on what icepiraka said about Spike vs. Continuous. I don't do Continuous well. I plink, plink the Gens before making the Trans go poof! I don't have that nifty consistent medium'ish damage against unshielded targets like somebody with energy weapons does. As I showed in my last post...kinetic just hits harder against unshielded targets. So it's a case of plink, plink this Gen, that Gen, the next Gen, going around in circles while building up Singularity Charge for when it's time to drop the Trans.
Hey, if it's a group where everybody can drop a Gen in a blink or two - it's one thing, but that's usually not the case.
I've got big damage or I've got plink damage. Plink damage tends to be normal Omega as I fly toward a target and a volley of Hyper as I fly away. Big damage? Sensor Scan, APO1, Rombush, Beachball, HY1 Omega, TS2 Trans, Tricobalt, DPB2 Web Mines, Breen Cluster, R-Tet Cascade, Singularity Jump, Photonic Fleet, Nimbus Pirates, and streaming Hypers.
Plink Damage. Big Damage. I probably should work on my inbetween.
Willard the Rat, Klingon, Sci (60), U.S.S. Tong Vey, Geneva Command Battlecruiser (FT6), Inner Circle
Meena, Ferasan, Tac (60), I.K.S. vagh SuD bas, B'rel Retrofit Bird-of-Prey (T5U), Ho'ragh [WIP] No-Fleet, T5U B'rel Retrofit Build
Thank you all for the positive feedback so far. I just posted up my build. If I can theorize up some more, I might post them too. Also, if you guys have some fantastic Skill Planner builds to show off, feel free to put them here.
@ataloss: Lol, don't call me Professor! And I can't tell how much damage the AoE of the Hargh'peng does (again, tooltips are not forthcoming here), but it's probably not useful outside of clearing spam. The real meat of the Hargh'peng comes from the detonation acting upon the target you fired upon. Among my fore-firing torps, my parser seems to show the Hargh'peng being the MVP of damage.
And yes, you're right in that the Hargh'peng flies the fastest. I didn't talk too much about torpedo speed outside of the slowness of targettable torpedoes, since I wasn't sure if it was worth talking about in depth.
@cepholapoid: Well, since you're flying the T'varo, 3 stock transphasics would outperform the RRs, true, because you have the 2pc cooldown reduction. On other ships though, if you really wanted a continuous stream of transphasics, I find the 10s cooldown on the stock transphasics just leaves too many gaps in your firing, so you'd really want to have the RRs.
Yeah, I really don't like stacking up 3 Breen Clusters on 1 ship, though I guess that's just a matter of playstyle.
@virus: I see what you mean when it comes to misfires, it probably really is a glitch. It just irritates me when people just instantly disregard using a great torpedo because of a (relatively) harmless bug that can be completely ignored by smart flying. Besides, given that this bug seems so deeply ingrained into the mechanics of STO, I'm skeptical as to whether it can or will be fixed (though I could be wrong about this), so people might as well learn how to work around it.
You bring up a few points which I forgot to mention. Misfires do also occur when transitioning in/out of maximum weapons range (or min Range in the case of the DPT or Bio-neural). I also forgot about the special arc function of the Hyper-Plasma. And though I kinda thought it was intuitive, yes skill points do boost all the torpedo DoTs. With regards to the Hyper-Plasma though, I find that the damage it provides fore is just to great to pass up, and I generally try to outtank the damage I do to myself sometimes.
And thanks for crunching the numbers on torps vs. shields, should be useful for those numerically inclined.
Cheers all and thanks a lot icepiraka for such insights!
I am leveling a Tactical Captain with the intention of making a Science Trop Boat and if it goes sour, I can always jump in an escort and pew pew away.
But like I said, I'm leveling and I'd like to know if you can with a Torp Boat. I just turned Commander, the free Science ship has 3 front weapons so to you all Veterans out there, would it be feasible to level with a Torp Boat? Or would I just be wasting time and effort?
I have just began the long path of the 'rep grind' for my romulan science captain and have placed her in a T'varo and I must thank you for the detailed list of exotic torpedoes. Here is the build I am aiming to end with.
- Primarily the boat will be used for killing the CE and other PvE for kicks, this is not intended to ever enter PvP. I will remain uncloaked typically.
- For targets with shields the new Rift + ES will drop them.
- Weapons will be swapped out from time to time depending on the content.
- The 3pc Romulan weapon set ability is worth the weapon slot when mines are not practical IMHO -46 resists for 10 seconds + APB3 + Full Aux Sensor Scan = Big beachball hit.
- Same could be said for the defense proc from 3pc Omega but not sure.
- I prefer hitscan torps as I tend to kill myself way to often with the beachball let alone HYs.
- Might go with the fleet warp core that has a disable chance on plasma shockwave, not sure yet.
While I applaud the huge amount of work and effort put into this guide, I do have to take issue with two related premises. That doesn't in any way detract from the value of the information you've presented, I just happen to view the entire topic with a bit of a larger perspective.
Firstly, that the only "true" torpedo boats are those that go all in on torpedoes and mines. There are multiple loadouts (most commonly on 5-fore slot ships, but some can work on traditional vessels. Additionally, the T'varo 2-piece has more recently allowed for even more flexibility on this route) that very successfully combine energy weapons with constant projectile fire. Given the shield unfriendly nature of STO's current space combat, the capacity to put out near "true" levels of torpedo fire combined with very significant sustainable energy weapons fire cannot be ignored. Bottom line: any ship that has it's offensive layout centered around projectile weapons, even if it supplements or supports those projectiles with non-torpedo or mine weapons, is still a torpedo boat.
Secondly, your assertion that photons have no place on a torpedo vessel. They are the only launcher that can sustain full uptime with only two weapon slots. Discounting the T'varo (which allows one to do the same with quantums and plasma torpedoes), no other launcher can have their cooldown entirely negated by a single PWO proc. Everything else has to rely on either chain proccing, which leaves significant gaps in fire, or devoting three weapon slots to launchers. Photon grounded builds don't have that handicap, and can be used to anchor any number of creative setups with a solid, sustainable damage output.
Last edited by stirling191; 10-07-2013 at 10:49 AM.
Thanks for putting this together, it was obviously a lot of work and experience.
There is another big thread here specifically about torpedo BOPs that may be worth referencing
I didnt see a lot of discussion about timing and coordination but maybe I nodded off. My torp t'varo uses a firing order of Tricobalt, Breen, Quentum, and Hargh'peng. I activate high-yield, then wait 30 seconds and activate a spread, then spam the torpedo hot-key. The firing order ends up going out as HY Tricobalt, Breen, Spread Quantum, and finally the Hargh'peng. If I have the Destabilized Plasma available I will fire it last, since the Tricobalt will still be beside me. The Hargh'peng will get there first because of the speed, followed by the Quantums and Breen, and then the Tricobalt [and Destabilized] slam into the target, and then the Hargh'peng delayed detonation fires off last. I know some people who put quantum first and try to activate it a second time at the very last as a finisher. This kind of stuff can be really important.
Timing with mines can be even trickier since they can fire all at once instead of one at-a-time.
Your taxonomy did not discuss that some of the special torps are console torps, and therefore do not use a weapon slot. Things like the Destabilized Plasma torp, you can slot it as a 5th torpedo, and dont have to choose between it and another.
You did some hand-waving on number of projectiles for different spreads and yields, but that stuff makes a difference. You might want to link to the sprad and high yield Wiki pages anyway, since they give the tables and are likely to be maintained in perpetuity.
A piece of trivia: HY1 is the only modifier that increases the base damage of photons and quantums, the rest of the modifiers decrease base damage as the number of projectiles go up.
Also, I know this is really about torpedo boats in particular, but there's a lot of good material here and people are going to read it for general information. You already have most of the knowledge here already so a sidebar discussion on it would be effective.
One example: You kind of blew past photons because of the DOFFs, but people who use photons tend to favor them precisely because they aren't using any torpedo DOFFs, they are using energy-centric builds and using photons for rapid spikes. Quantum is better on an energy escort if you want to try and kill the target when the shields flicker down, photons are better for frequent barrages [when you arent using DOFFs]. I would also like to see some math on siege DPS over time. Everybody uses the romulan torps, and they have good numbers, but I would like to see some a comparison table anyway. Some discussion on the Wide-Angle torp vs Breen cluster on a beam boat would be interesting too, that kind of stuff.
Great work, thanks again
Last edited by ursusmorologus; 10-07-2013 at 11:52 AM.
I'd like to pipe in for a sec. Because that's how I roll...
1) I know it was mentioned in passing, but I'd like to reiterate the fact that the Hargh'Peng's Time-To-Target is one of it's BEST features. When you need that damage RIGHT FRIGGIN NOW, it's great for that. It also hits like a freight train for a single torp with no modifiers.
2) The TDD - Oh, how I love/hate you. You may want to point out that it was initially a copypasta of the Tricobalt with a different visualization (remember how it used to only be buffed by the tricobalt before they fixed it to be Chroniton?). With that in mind, the tooltip is incorrect; it says something to the effect of 6 k damage and 100% chance to slow, but in my tests i have found them to be false - in fact I have found it has to wide of a damage variance to be a torp you can count on. I used it for the 3pc set back when NPC mobs used to spam EPtE all the time.
I'd love to run some more controlled tests to confirm that the torp needs a fix.
I've past quite some time trying different configurations in order to find a satisfactory way of outfitting my t'varo as a torpedo boat, and this is what I've found the most effective for me so far, and what I'm flying atm.
It's primarily focused on spike damage (for pvp), but thanks to GWI + grav generators I can easily bunch up NPCs as well, allowing my AoE spike to quickly dispose of multiple targets, therefore not wasting all my spike on single targets and then having to wait for it to reload for the next single target.
The 2 transphasic torps in the front are there not to really do damage, but more to trigger the projectile doffs.
First attack run is usually like this:
Sensor Scan (125Aux and maxed out Starship Sensors) + APBI + GWI quickly followed by the bioneural (more of a distraction really) + cluster torp + iso charge, and (as I fly past the target) either web mines or transphasic mines (depends on the kind of target) + DPBIII.
I use 2 dispersal patterns and 2 mine launcher to cut both cooldowns
I subnuc if the target tries to run away from my GW. I also constantly cicle epte in order to attack/run away and to keep my defence as high as possible all the time. Polarize Hull and/or Jam Sensors in case I get caught. HE for healing my hull.
The key for this to work is timing, since most of my damage comes from the cluster torp and the mines I try to launch them as close as possible to the target, while photonic fleet and the bioneural distract/attract FAW and pets' fire. Yes, my sing core is not optimal atm but can't afford another one right now. Ideally I need one that helps with quantum absorption instead of Sing Overcharge (since I don't use energy anymore) but apart from that I'm happy with the aux and engines boost + 6.6% damage from 2 subsystems constantly above 75 power.
Another key factor is target selection. To get the most out of this build you should attack already engaged/busy targets, that will increase the chances of you passing by unnoticed and your torps and mines to actually land some hits.. and when they hit they hit hard.
125 Aux also helps with web mines and torps damage overall thanks to the nukara passive.
About Doffs, I run with 3 purple projectiles + 2 purple deflector officers for my GW.
This setup is working great for me, but I'm always on the way of searching a better one and this guide and thread has for sure some interesting insights