Career Officer
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 891
# 1 Players vs devs - really?
10-22-2013, 01:15 AM
Maybe its just me but somehow some of the stuff gecko said during his POP - interview really pissed me off. He made it look like players are just playing the easiest content with the most rewards without any other consideration and that he has to "guide" us to the other content by giving it more marks or whatever.

Dear gecko -

There are two sides:
Normally i play whats fun. And part of that fun is a challange. If you cant provide more elite or even better ultra elite content in the game dont tell me i'm avoiding missions because others are easier. Its completely the other way around.

Oh and maybe the reason its all too easy is because i bought all the stuff you wanted me (as a player) to buy so basically paid you for stuff that makes this game boring as hell cause once you get it its all roflstomping away.

Also maybe a lot of the missions are poorly designed? Like ANR. And maybe you made this game such a grind fest that sometimes we dont have a choise other than to farm instead of just playing.

ANR for example is really bad reward wise and mission wise and everything else wise:

-no matter how good your run is you will get a max of 25 (30 with marks event) marks. And it will always take 12mins
-sometimes it bugs
-sometimes ppl free the ships without fireing a shot because you made the activation radius too big and never bothered fixing it

So why bother when it will not get faster and no more rewards then just doing minimal stuff and be done with it. No challange no motivation nothing. Worst mission ever.

Then compare the rewards with estf:

-mission goes faster the better the team is
-i can mess up and die
-there has to be some sort of tactic to it although now everyone did the mission like 1k times so thats over mostly
-and since eveybody is looking at least a bit on rewards :

--- i get about 100 marks
--- a chance for 1 6 or 11 bnps aka dil
--- about 1k dil flat

Or another great example is big dig where you can just forget about completeing the daily when you spawn in a already progressed mission and cause of the romulan respawn cant get to the plants anymore unless there are others in the same boat with you.

Now compare that to the mission ANR rewards its like the mission takes double the time and rewards 1/4th of the marks and no dil nothing else.


So if one say romulan plasma rep beam array costs 28k dil and i need 7 of those why would i do anr if i dont get the dil i need to progress?

So not only are stfs the most challanging content you made after nws the reward the most in the least time. So yes ppl play those more. Maybe thats not just cause we are lazy gamers but because the rest is no fun at all AND doent provide appropriate rewards compared to the rest.

Maybe powercreeping away without actual missions to need all that power is not the right thing to do?
Maybe accusing your players of just stupidly going for rewards is not that of a nice thing to say and even if it has some basis in really - maybe thats because you made this game almost all grind grind grind.

So yeah rant over whatever really i mean wtf maybe someone should play his own game a bit.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 587
# 2
10-22-2013, 01:50 AM
I totally agree with you, the game rewards are out of phase and too easy to complete. Time. Work. is all that matters when you grind.
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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,729
# 3
10-22-2013, 02:24 AM
I also agree. I don't play missions that provide crap for rewards. If i need rom marks i go epohh, or defend rh'ihho station.

And then i run around nukara prime once to twice a day.

For the rest of the time i run omega STF's both space and ground (though less ground as nobody ever wants to do the grounds)

I feel like if they added douple expertise to those missions nobody wants to do like ANR and ground missions more people would be inclined to do them as Expertise is a pain in the backside especially for new toons. And you require quite the large sums for Rep missions and gear.
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Captain
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 4,173
# 4
10-22-2013, 02:58 AM
stfs's arent and weren't the most challenging content.
they where and are the most rewarding for the least effort.
especially conduit and vortex, unfortunatly until the rewards match investment and and investment, the actually "hard" content will be ignored.

and until balance is fixed across pve, team-pve, premade-pve, pvp, team-pvp, premade-pvp, and the npc's for these events designed intelligently rather than being mighty-mooks with slappy-stats, its not going to be possible to creates this content.

how do you challenge the 'defender' class without npc's ohking the attacker?
how do you challenge the 'attacker' without dps walling the defender?
how do you challenge the 'healer' without going so far as making it iether useless or immortal?

none of which apply to ground since its disgustingly clunky. and goes from "easy" to "punnish" without getting hard.

all the ailments of over-stretching the antique trinity.
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Career Officer
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 891
# 5
10-22-2013, 03:22 AM
Then whats more challanging then estfs? (Space not ground) other than nws any maybe sb24? And mostly i mean missions where you can easily mess up and die instead of just pewpew-ing away...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 157
# 6
10-22-2013, 04:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skollulfr View Post
stfs's arent and weren't the most challenging content.
they where and are the most rewarding for the least effort.
especially conduit and vortex, unfortunatly until the rewards match investment and and investment, the actually "hard" content will be ignored.

and until balance is fixed across pve, team-pve, premade-pve, pvp, team-pvp, premade-pvp, and the npc's for these events designed intelligently rather than being mighty-mooks with slappy-stats, its not going to be possible to creates this content.

how do you challenge the 'defender' class without npc's ohking the attacker?
how do you challenge the 'attacker' without dps walling the defender?
how do you challenge the 'healer' without going so far as making it iether useless or immortal?

none of which apply to ground since its disgustingly clunky. and goes from "easy" to "punnish" without getting hard.

all the ailments of over-stretching the antique trinity.

Hu? Other games do it just fine.

The whole "Trinity" does not work in STO, because there is no Trinity.
I can skill up my Tac the same way as i do with my scie,
i can put both in the very same ship, give them the same Gear,
same BOFFs and same DOFFs,
then ist exatcly FOUR skill which make a difference between the two.

For "more challenging content"
I would suggest to start with a total rework of the Skill system,

Each "Class" should get a individual Skill tree,
divided into 3 sub groups,
one for Tac, one for Sci and one for Eng,

So you could still tailor your Toon into the direction you want,
but you would still be somewhat "stuck" with the class you picked.

For example purposes, the Eng tree could include:

For Eng. Captains:

Better armor (hull health boost), Better resist. values, and maybe as "final" skill
some sort of short time damage immunity.

For Sci Captains, it could include (Still the eng tree mind you),

a Boost to the Aux power levels, a boost to shield strength and maybe as "final"
skill a passive aura which increases your teams perception values or acc value,
some kind of "improved sensor phalanx" which shares its data with the team.

For Tac captains, it could be:

Improved ship agility (boosting the def stat), improved weapon energie power
and may as "final" Skill, some kinf of active which reduces the weapon power drain to 0 for
a few seconds.


This way, each "Class" could skill eng. in its skill tree, and would get defensive improvements out of it, but each would get very class specific improvements.

From there you could start reworking the Encounters, because, only
a Eng captain would be able to take on sustained High damage, thanks to his
improved resist and hull health, while a Sci captain could take a hit or two without getting
blow up instant, but if the shields are gone, he better is out of the danger zone.
And tac captains would have to rely somewhat on "Luck" of not getting hit,
because of the higher Deff stat, they maybe even could take a single hit, but a second one,
would blow them out of the water.


And from there, you could go anywhere, because you can work with a way smaller frame of information when desinning encounters. As of now, Any Encounter needs allways to be designed arround "everythign is possible" like "can 5 Tac captains, with Skillpoints mainly in Eng, flying Sci ships, beat this?"

And if you need to design arround that, what do you think will happen if 1 Eng in a Cruiser, skilled for tank, 1 Sci in a Sci ship, skilled for Support/heals and 3 Tacs in escorts, build for max DPS, will do to the encounter? Right, they will rip it a new one in NO time.

And yes, re building this stuff arround the trinity, would in the end, lead to longer Que times, because you would need a specific combination, like:
1 Eng 1 Sci 3 Tac.

But even this could be circumventent,
by simply put, leavin 5 man Elite modes as the "common mans playground"
Throw in 10 Player "Raid Style" missions, maybe attacks on starbases or something,
and make those harder, maybe reward spectacular Costume Pieces, or Weapons/
shields with special (visual ONLY) effects, for the people who are able to tacle it,
to "show off" and leave "reputation rewards" the same as for the 5 mans.

I mean, if i do the hardest stuff, and i beat it, with friends, i WANT something
to show that i went there, and did it.

The real incetive for beating the hardest of challenges, should allways be a way, to set yourself apart from others in visual ways.
Career Officer
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 891
# 7
10-22-2013, 06:08 AM
Waaahhh

Dont hijack my thread for your trinity whine.. Thx

Only thing i said was i didnt like the way he talked about players in general and how they play when in fact its badly designed content and extremely bad designed reward distribution over all missions / queues which is driving ppl to do some missions more than others only in conjunction with the immens grind everywhere.

There is no real thought that goes into enemy design like eg with the queen who has this 5km death zone which is quite cool or the fbp stuff and all that which could be introduced to other npcs as well. Like give the elite tac cube high dps weapons with a 5km range so that its really hard to get close unless a engi or whatever helps tanking and stuff like that. Not every beam/cannon needs to have full range.

There are a lot of things enemy npcs could do to make it more interessting. Also like more group action where several small vessels pair up to target one ship only and many many more stuff like that.

Its just i hate being called a farm oriented player when i usually am not just this game forced you to farm or lets say encourages you to do so.

The normal response would be to forget about lock boxes c-store ships rep grind and SB grind and you could still do all content easily but there would be noone buying stuff.

So in the end those of us who buy stuff are basically unsupported and if we do more than one stf a day to farm for dil cause there is mostly nothing else that gives you dil by far we are called the strange players that mis-use the content or something. Wtf?
Commander
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 460
# 8
10-22-2013, 06:12 AM
To be brutally honest, I'm impressed at how much the STO community cares about the status of the game. I've been playing since April (of this year) and every time I'm on here, I see so many great ideas that wouldn't take long to implement. Most of the time (like 80%), the comments are not about wanting a shiny new ship, it's ideas about improving the games mechanics or separating the classes so that they can really feel unique (especially the heavily ignored science class).

Yet, all of these ideas fall upon def ears. The moderators at times shake their head in agreement with some of these ideas (because it's reflected in their comments), yet they too are powerless to move them up the chain of command.

That is all...
Career Officer
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 891
# 9
10-22-2013, 06:35 AM
I just wish sometimes the devs would read here to get ideas for what to do instead of going all out with frikkin laser-dinos
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,799
# 10
10-22-2013, 07:26 AM
The OP is right. People don't bother with the "more challenging content" because devs either give horrible rewards given the time it takes for the "more challenging content". People almost never run ground STFs because the rewards don't reflect the time it takes to do them compared to the space ones. If they hiked the marks/dil on the ground ones to account for how much more time I spend on them, then yes, I'd do them. With all the statistics they have access to, they should adjust all mark/dil rewards based on the average time spend doing X thing compared to the fast/"easy" one people gravitate towards.

Also, caps on rewards based on "things done" in general are stupid and I fail to see the reason for them in this game. Case in point Epohh tagging. You need team work to capture a lot of them, but they cap the rewards even if the team captures a massive amount.
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