Ensign
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 4
# 1 Is science a waste of time?
10-11-2013, 03:46 PM
I have been reading alot through out the forums and have seen quite a dump on science captains and vessles.

Im concerned because i love the suport role in most mmo's but have not seen many fleets with an interest in the role. I would hate to put effort into a class and build that will have minimal if any use in end game content.

Are there any science captains that run a science ship and consider them selves crucial to end game play?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 100
# 2
10-11-2013, 03:54 PM
Take advice, but judge by your own experiences.

Science is PvP king by debuff boosts, and by far the best "shield healer" out there - making it a competing space tank-role for Engi captains. Its not a top DPS, but its team helpfulness via debuffing or shield assisting-healing can't be denied. On ground Sci runs as the PvE heal-tank on occasion, being able to stay alive far easier than other ground types, where Engi is the main damage via mines. Tac play the redshirt role down there.

Science is fine, nothing wrong with it, but you gotta get used to the STO dynamic for it.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,937
# 3
10-11-2013, 03:59 PM
It depends on what you're wanting to do at end-game. If you're doing STFs then DPS is generally king at this point - but that doesn't mean STFs won't be changes at some point in the future to recognize other roles as being important. But for now they're all about DPS. And you can still do STFs with Sci, but people prefer higher DPS ships due to the optional timer.

If you're doing Foundry or Rep grinds the Science works as well as any other type of ship. Even though these things are often still DPScentric they're still quite easily doable with Sci.

There are uses for Sci in PvP as well. Decloaking, holding, buffing etc are are useful abilities in PvP.

Science is my favorite type of ship but I've generally found many ways to make myself useful. But taht usually starts by joining a Fleet and playing with regular people rather then PUGs. Far too often PUGs are about speed and efficiency rather then any real sense of teamplay or comradery.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,073
# 4
10-11-2013, 05:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by firestonepale31 View Post
Are there any science captains that run a science ship and consider them selves crucial to end game play?
I've saved many an eSTF optional playing as my sci in a Luna-class with TBR. I don't expect to do as much damage as my tacs and engs running aux2batt cruisers... but I have tricks up my sleeve that count in other ways. Sometimes you need CC in order to give your team time to DPS down a transformer. Or shield healing team mates.

Support roles are understated in this game IMO. Sure DPS is king, but I can't tell you how many times I wished someone on my team could heal me. In PUGs, you can't really expect people to be competent enough or caring enough to heal you. But it sure is nice to receive it and I'd say if you like the support role then jump into it.

Just remember you don't have to fly science vessels as a science captain. I'm not saying science vessels are bad btw - but if you want to play a support role, have a look at the Fleet Ambassador. Especially now that cruisers are gonna get the Avenger's new team auras. Hopefully science vessels get something akin to that in the near future.
Captain
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 3,032
# 5
10-11-2013, 05:22 PM
their completely misconceived for the most part thanks to the antique trinity not treating as aoe attacks.

besides, npc's tend to immune to most sci abilities in whole or in part.


how do you design npc's tough enough to slow attacker class without being a dps wall to the defender class, while designing them to hit hard enough to challenge the defender class without one shotting the attacker with a dice roll?
and all this while keeping heals high enough to actually support the others without doing what WoW did and making healers immortal?

then after you have done that, balance player abilities to be effective for pve, while providing a competitive environment in pvp?(rather than the always slanted one the antique trinity always produces)

simple answer is... you cant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stofsk View Post
I've saved many an eSTF optional playing as my sci in a Luna-class with TBR.
can do that with any escort with a ltc sci boff.

Quote:
Just remember you don't have to fly science vessels as a science captain.
true. sciscorts do it all.
as it turns out, an intrepid would lose a fight with a connie.
and thats canon.
! the power of plot compels you.

Last edited by skollulfr; 10-11-2013 at 05:24 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,077
# 6
10-11-2013, 05:36 PM
Science captains and science ships are only really needed for PVP. If you do PVE only its better to just use a tac captain in an escort or cruiser.

The only sci support skills needed in pve can be performed adequately enough by a tac captain using an escort that has Lt Cmdr Sci such as gravity well 1 or tractor beam repulsors.
Tala -KDF Tac- House of Beautiful Orions
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 371
# 7
10-11-2013, 05:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by marc8219 View Post
Science captains and science ships are only really needed for PVP. If you do PVE only its better to just use a tac captain in an escort or cruiser.

The only sci support skills needed in pve can be performed adequately enough by a tac captain using an escort that has Lt Cmdr Sci such as gravity well 1 or tractor beam repulsors.
I call tractor beam repulsers the wesley beam, as to my knowledge he was the first to use them in star trek cannon.
Captain
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 3,032
# 8
10-11-2013, 05:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by redz4tw View Post
I call tractor beam repulsers the wesley beam, as to my knowledge he was the first to use them in star trek cannon.
hahaha... this should be in the tooltip if true.
as it turns out, an intrepid would lose a fight with a connie.
and thats canon.
! the power of plot compels you.
Captain
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,751
# 9
10-11-2013, 06:09 PM
Science can work with science vessels. Though i usually fly warbirds with my Romulan Sci, i have used the Nova with great effect in PVE.

Don't expect bulk or Super DPS (although you CAN make do those with Science vessels as well). Science is master at Crowd Control, debuffing and team healing.

Tricobalt builds are particularly fun with CC, although Transphasic is also an option due to the relative low hull strength of science vessels.

Torpedo builds allow you to go full-aux and don't worry about weapon energy.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,084
# 10
10-11-2013, 08:34 PM
Science is NOT the master of crowd control, debuffing, and healing. Sci ships do some of that, yes, but ENG cruisers do it far better. TSS is a weaker buff than ES. ET gives about 3x the heal of HE, and does so instantly with no "pulses" that can come very slowly at times. EWP is just as good for dealing damage and crowd control as grav well is. Grav well may proclaim to do more damage, but only at the very absolute CENTER of the well, and falls off VERY rapidly even a little way out from the center (even while still under the "pull" of the well, damage drops off), whereas EWP is constant damage which coupled with evasive manuevers can control a much larger area and more diverse group of enemies. Further, you can get your own grav wells with TCD warheads and doffs that have good chance of aftershocks. I did this rather reliably for a while on my TAC character.


Nothing a sci does is overly useful in this game, especially when considering the ENG cruisers do it all, do it better, do it with more weapons, do it with better damage output which you NEED in this game -- you can't just "assist" with your sci. When you're on a timer you need to get your butt in gear and do some freaking damage. It doesn't matter if you heal your teammates' shields once in a while if the end result is you lose the mission because they were working a 4-man team because your sci ship was useless to the effort.

PvP is a joke as well The damage output of a sci ship is a joke. They're a distraction, a nuisance, used so your teammates can get an upper hand. You get better buff/debuff as a TAC in this game than as a SCI. APB and APO.

Science gives you... hrm.....


Well let's look at offense, and healing/defense....

Offense... hrm... surely there are some tools in the SCI kit?

Energy siphon? No that sucks, draining ONLY 9 power and ONLY for 5 lousy seconds... What else.. Hm.... Grav well? Does nothing in PvP, sucks terribly against PvE, does little to no damage and the pull is just a nuisance effect. Great for slowing down ships without really damaging them, but then so are chroniton mines! Hrm... Jam sensors? Nope, sucks because it's only a placate... as soon as the target receives damage it disappears. Hrm... what else? Photonic shockwave? Nope! Even if you had one of the weakest escorts or birds of prey with NO SHIELDS sitting inside the 5k distance needed to hit them, you would ONLY do less than 1/10th damage to their entire hull, and that's WIHTOUT shields!! Forget about PvE with ships that have 700,000 hull points. Tyken's Rift? It's supposed to drain so much power a ship is stuck in space, but it's a MILD drain on them in this game. MILD is putting it kindly. It does so little damage its main effect is to slow down. Essentially crowd control, like Grav Well, without ever doing any work to help you kill what you're controlling. But, surely you can aid your team by using those sci skills to take down enemy shields, right? Like Tachyon beam? Suuuuure... except is sucks! I used it extensively for a while and it was a freaking fart in the wind to any PvE ship, useless, and not worth the boff slot it occupies. Ooh, I know! Viral Matrix, right? Wrong. Even if it worked it would last for 4 seconds. Does almost nothing to PvE targets. They don't really have SYSTEMs to disable. They aren't coded like normal ships. They cheat at everything, so most sci effects have nothing to act upon.

But it can still be a healer, right? As mentioned TSS is a pale comparison to ES. Sci Team is only useful for sub-nuc debuff and ANY ship can stock it, not just a science ship. Sci team will almost always be on cooldown if you use Tac Team and/or Eng team, since all 3 use the same cooldown trigger, and if you're hit with sub-nuc in the middle of a fight you've probably already balanced your shields with TT, thus negating ST as a useful tool. Hazard Emitters, right? Well they clean plasma fires and the borg shield neutralizer, but the hull heal they give is a almost 1/4th what Engineering Team gives you. Okay, but what about scramble sensors? You get an ungodly long cool down for something that works for ONLY 5 seconds. In that 5 seconds it MAY cause enemy ships to target other enemies, but not always! It doesn't stop them from attacking you at all! Worthless skill. Okay, but you're being attacked and want to use Feedback Pulse to do some damage, right? Nope! FBP is not nearly as useful as Reverse Shield Polarity. RSP actually turns that enemy fire into MORE SHIELDS, where as FBP only does 25% damage back, of which 50% only will get through shields on enemy ships. So that's 1/8th the damage you are receiving going back to your attacker, and only for 15 seconds (with another ungodly long cooldown afterwards). If you're being attacked so badly in 15 seconds to do any damage to a ship attacking you with FBP, you'd be blown up 8x over before you ever incur damage to them.


The ONLY thing that sci is useful for in this game is tractor beam (not for any damage, but for crowd control) and tractor beam repulsors. The latter being mildly more useful. Note, however, that such low-level skills are available on ALL ships, even escorts, and not unique to sci ships at all.

In fact, the way Cryptic have ruined the sci class it has NO usefulness over a ENG cruiser or a TAC escort in any PvE in this game. Their use in PvP is a joke since PvP in this game is a joke as well (and woefully broken on so many levels it's not worth getting into).

If you're thinking of rolling a SCI: don't. Just don't. Cryptic MAY change it in the far future to make them more useful, but their history on the Sci class from the start until today has been to shift all focus away from that class and eventually I predict it will be removed entirely. IF the game lasts that long.
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