Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,967
# 21
10-12-2013, 03:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skollulfr View Post
their completely misconceived for the most part thanks to the antique trinity not treating as aoe attacks.

besides, npc's tend to immune to most sci abilities in whole or in part.


how do you design npc's tough enough to slow attacker class without being a dps wall to the defender class, while designing them to hit hard enough to challenge the defender class without one shotting the attacker with a dice roll?
and all this while keeping heals high enough to actually support the others without doing what WoW did and making healers immortal?

then after you have done that, balance player abilities to be effective for pve, while providing a competitive environment in pvp?(rather than the always slanted one the antique trinity always produces)

simple answer is... you cant.


can do that with any escort with a ltc sci boff.


true. sciscorts do it all.
exactly what he said...PVP excellent class. in PVE very hard to build right in a sci vessel, but OK with escorts.
Go pro or go home
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,299
# 22
10-12-2013, 06:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodentmaster View Post
Well let's look at offense, and healing/defense....

Offense... hrm... surely there are some tools in the SCI kit?

Energy siphon? No that sucks, draining ONLY 9 power and ONLY for 5 lousy seconds... What else.. Hm.... Grav well? Does nothing in PvP, sucks terribly against PvE, does little to no damage and the pull is just a nuisance effect. Great for slowing down ships without really damaging them, but then so are chroniton mines! Hrm... Jam sensors? Nope, sucks because it's only a placate... as soon as the target receives damage it disappears. Hrm... what else? Photonic shockwave? Nope! Even if you had one of the weakest escorts or birds of prey with NO SHIELDS sitting inside the 5k distance needed to hit them, you would ONLY do less than 1/10th damage to their entire hull, and that's WIHTOUT shields!! Forget about PvE with ships that have 700,000 hull points. Tyken's Rift? It's supposed to drain so much power a ship is stuck in space, but it's a MILD drain on them in this game. MILD is putting it kindly. It does so little damage its main effect is to slow down. Essentially crowd control, like Grav Well, without ever doing any work to help you kill what you're controlling. But, surely you can aid your team by using those sci skills to take down enemy shields, right? Like Tachyon beam? Suuuuure... except is sucks! I used it extensively for a while and it was a freaking fart in the wind to any PvE ship, useless, and not worth the boff slot it occupies. Ooh, I know! Viral Matrix, right? Wrong. Even if it worked it would last for 4 seconds. Does almost nothing to PvE targets. They don't really have SYSTEMs to disable. They aren't coded like normal ships. They cheat at everything, so most sci effects have nothing to act upon.

But it can still be a healer, right? As mentioned TSS is a pale comparison to ES. Sci Team is only useful for sub-nuc debuff and ANY ship can stock it, not just a science ship. Sci team will almost always be on cooldown if you use Tac Team and/or Eng team, since all 3 use the same cooldown trigger, and if you're hit with sub-nuc in the middle of a fight you've probably already balanced your shields with TT, thus negating ST as a useful tool. Hazard Emitters, right? Well they clean plasma fires and the borg shield neutralizer, but the hull heal they give is a almost 1/4th what Engineering Team gives you. Okay, but what about scramble sensors? You get an ungodly long cool down for something that works for ONLY 5 seconds. In that 5 seconds it MAY cause enemy ships to target other enemies, but not always! It doesn't stop them from attacking you at all! Worthless skill. Okay, but you're being attacked and want to use Feedback Pulse to do some damage, right? Nope! FBP is not nearly as useful as Reverse Shield Polarity. RSP actually turns that enemy fire into MORE SHIELDS, where as FBP only does 25% damage back, of which 50% only will get through shields on enemy ships. So that's 1/8th the damage you are receiving going back to your attacker, and only for 15 seconds (with another ungodly long cooldown afterwards). If you're being attacked so badly in 15 seconds to do any damage to a ship attacking you with FBP, you'd be blown up 8x over before you ever incur damage to them.
If you want a blow-by-blow rebuttal.....
Energy Siphon - Yeah, that's only if you don't spec into it. I gain 40+ power from it, drain about 20+ from PvP targets and enough to shut down PvE enemies. Also, it lasts 24 seconds.

Grav Well - due to the fixes, it clears spam and holds multiple enemies at once - which is extremely effective for explosive chain-reactions in PvE and can effectively disrupt cruiserballs in PvP. Also, unlike EWP, it can't be cleared - and aftershocks are extremely useful in yanking people out of cloak.

Jam Sensors - don't use it on whoever you're shooting at. Otherwise, it really is awful.

Photonic Shockwave - it's a disruption. Clear spam, with shockwave doffs, disrupts extends and TIF, along with being nice to get a friendly out of a tractor jam.

Tyken's Rift - You really didn't try it after the fix, did you? It drains over 100 power when specced into now - you just need to hold the target there for 5 seconds to kill his engines. Tractor will do fine for that - and he's dead.

Viral Matrix - Agreed, semi-useless in PvE. However, it's a great utility power for PvP - especially since people started running Romulan boffs instead of Humans. Shutting down engines, weapons or aux are all very dangerous, especially against AtB boats.

Science Team - you need to note that it clears things like AMS as well. Furthermore, note that Subnukes do not add cooldown to shared cooldowns - so Science Team will come back up a lot faster than something cycled. Furthermore, it's very useful to toss on teammates who have just gotten subnuked!

Hazard Emitters - Total up the heal provided with high aux and a decent spec. It heals a bunch more than Engineering Team does then.

Scramble Sensors - Not worth a thing in PvE. However, it's excellent in PvP! It can screw up a healer's targeting quite a bit. Also, someone scrambled but still targeting you? That means any team-castable heals he has - such as Tac Team, AP Delta or Aux to Structural - will get cast on you! Hence, he has to break lock. Also, if you spec, it can hit 15 seconds or so.

Feedback Pulse - You really underestimated this one. The multiplier of damage fed back is dependent on Aux and particle gens - and can be pushed up to 0.8 or 0.9. Some can even get it over 1.0! It's only uncommon in PvP because it's solely a "stop shooting me" button - like RSP, actually. There have been many cases of the Sci ship surviving and killing the escort shooting at it.

Transfer Shield Strength - Yes, less powerful than Extend Shields - however, it's not gonna get interrupted by an Aux offline, interrupt or getting pushed out of range.

TL;DR: Your perception of these powers is all based on something like 50 aux and not speccing into them. Of course they'd be useless, same way weapons fire with 50 weapons power and no tac consoles would be useless. Not to mention you seem to have no idea of how to apply Science in PvP. Almost all Science is situational, but it absolutely kills in those situations. Just you wait until you face a Sci who actually has an idea of what he's doing.


Quote:
Exqueaze me? No, you cannot dismiss it as a wall of text and saying I didn't explain it, because I WENT DOWN THE LIST SKILL BY SKILL AND LISTED THE PROBLEM WITH EVERY ONE SYSTEMATICALLY!

Your ignoring my comments is vastly showing because I explained, IN DETAIL, how GW will pull but not damage. Pull is great for CC, but not as great as EWP. The damage is barely a tickle. Even the lowest-tier PvE enemy targets won't be killed by maxed out GW3 today. I ran GW3 with max skills and consoles to get the MOST out of it, and fired it at a swarm of 8-9 fighters... yes, FIGHTERS, not even ships... And it barely made a dent. It clustered them together so I could CSV them to death, but the damage from the GW isnt' enough to even harm PETS.

I reject your ignorant response because you didn't bother reading or comprehending before nay-saying.

The answer is still a resounding: YES it is a waste of time to roll a new sci right now.

As for ENG beam boats not doing damage? HAH! With the right setup they can run max power levels nonstop to shields and weapons at ALL TIMES gaining a very high DPS, while STILL retaining cross-healing and/or buff/debuf and/or crowd control on top of that! Putting a sci in a non-sci ship is fine and dandy, but don't expect to be considered a sci if you're just using sub-nuc and sensors. Sci means spec'd for sci skills, geared for sci skills, using your specialty. I ran my sci in a fully decked out escort with the same setup as my TAC escort, and didn't do nearly as much damage because the innate TAC skills boost damage, and the TAC was spec'd in weapons output, weapons crit, weapons accuracy, etc. Skill points that a SCI won't focus on.
Well, here you go. I went down your list, skill by skill, systematically, and you've been blind to a lot of things. Sci isn't supposed to do damage - it's supposed to debuff the target to the point that your damage is effective - and amplify everyone else's!

I play a science vessel on my sci in PvP - and I find it much better than playing a Sci-scort, in the team context. Take your own nay-saying somewhere else. Don't act so high-and-mighty just because you can't figure out how to play Science properly.
A Gensokyoan Mech-piloting Starship Admiral Rodent.
Take it easy!

Ishmael@scurry5: A Nibbling Sci
*nomnomnibblemunchgnawgnaw*

Last edited by scurry5; 10-12-2013 at 06:37 AM.
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 505
# 23
10-12-2013, 07:47 AM
Science is absolutely not a waste of time. I love my Trill VA in her Aventine. Always comes first in Crystalline Catastrophe without much effort and can be a real life saver in STF's when people don't watch the NPC's like probes and nanite spheres. Mirror what other people say about PvP in that Science Captains can be a royal pain in the backside, especially since the recent power changes. People hate fighting my Aventine because I always shut them down with viral matrix and target subsystems, not to mention my grav wells and tractor beams from myself and yellowstone pets.

Science takes a little getting used to, especially on the damage front but they can be so much more fun to fly than the simple play styles of tacticals etc (pop all buffs and watch your target go boom).
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Captain
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 4,169
# 24
10-12-2013, 08:02 AM
Sci requires more strategic builds. Tacscort just point and shoot with DHCs, Engi does orbit and shoot with 8 beams, Sci has to hold the target down then figure out a way to kill it with limited tools. It works plenty fine when you put the necessary effort into it.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,764
# 25
10-12-2013, 08:07 AM
Get full sensor consoles, go full Aux, see all the Warbirds in a 20km radius.

And Scramble Sensors 3 every A2B BFAW DEMarion Avenger you see. Because the best answer to something melting your hull... is to make him melt his friends' hulls!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lt. Comm. Pion
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To be able to smile and forgive everything;
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Captain
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,181
# 26
10-12-2013, 01:08 PM
I have a Science Officer flying a Vesta best Science Ship for doing PvE stuff.
Captain
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,181
# 27
10-12-2013, 01:31 PM
I also love using Science Officers on ground they are the funnest to play on ground IMO.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 740
# 28
10-12-2013, 01:36 PM
Space captain of all types here (ground I use my engineer and her army of turrets and drones) EVERY class if built right is a threat or of use.. My Eng in her tac ODDY is a super tank with low escort level DPS (3 years built char) I never thought it would happen but I have 2 FED sci.. vesta and wells both viable, the wells I fly very little due to it being nothing but a flying cheese wedge.. sci = crowd control (PVE) and support role (PVP) can be super effective, tac is the DPS centric nature of the game which came and went, balance is what you make of it (apparently)...
Ensign
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 16
# 29
10-12-2013, 03:27 PM
The ability to have your ship almost dead and then shoot at the enemy's engines and fly away is an incredibly powerful one under right circumstances. Science is not a waste of time in my book.
Commander
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 299
# 30
10-12-2013, 05:25 PM
When STO first came online I rolled a Sci, but some other shiney game came along and I dropped STO. Next time I played it I got a Tac Captain to cap and enjoyed the hell out of it. This time round I revisited my Sci and have now got her to cap and she is now my main.

I got into my Sci with some trepidation, having read all the negative stuff about Sci, and for a fact Sci probably isn't in as good a place as it could be and ought to be. But I got some good advice from some of the experienced Sci people here, and I have to say that, especially with the recent changes to Gravity Well and Tyken's Rift, if Sci was perhaps out of business (except for drain builds) for a while, it's now slowly getting back into business.

At least, for general PvE, i.e. solo and STFs. For solo PvE (missions, exploration, etc.), you can build for fairly hefty damage if you go for a torp boat. Torps and Sci/Sci mix very well together (at least until you start gearing up for endgame gear, which opens up your possibilities a bit more). PvP I haven't gotten into yet so can't say, but by all accounts, Sci is highly valued in PvP.

But this is all in the context of: sadly, and usually despite the best of intentions, most MMOs eventually default to "damage is king" in endgame PvE, and with the types of players who are all about minimizing the time spent in an STF, yes, Sci/Sci is probably not optimal.

But to counterbalance that, if you're in PUG, or a a team that isn't that bothered about shaving microseconds off completion time, Sci/Sci is just fine for STFs and does make a contribution (esp now with GW and TR) - but more importantly it's a lot of fun to play. Sci being a "mage" class is all about doing things with lots of different keypresses and combinations of keypresses. So if you like that kind of "fiddly" gameplay, you'll like Sci.

Top tip: investment in skills and equipment (e.g. deflector, consoles) is a bit more finicky than with other classes. While you have a broad pallette of possibilities, you will generally be able to specialize only in one or two types of "thing", and have to stack consoles for it, and min-max everything else around it too (e.g. universal consoles, deflector, high aux, even warp core and engines). Then you will have quite a noticeable effect. Unfortunately, it's not possible to be a true "jack of all trades" with Sci, you have to pick a "thing (e.g. Drain, Debuff, Confuse, Placate, Healing, Damage, etc., etc.) and build around that. But if you do that and build carefully and work around the limitations, you won't be disappointed.
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