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Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,825
Hello!

I know devs won't react to this thread, just by reading my name but anyway.

I would like to propose a alternative 2409 Starfleet style, that looks different than the egg shaped saucer and long nacelles, most of Cryptics Starfleet creations have. (Odyssey, Avenger, Regent)
This is not meant as a substitution to the already existing ship models, but a alternative to it.

I don't have much graphic material on my own, so i will use other sources to show what i mean.

Here's a alternative Odyssey (just a bad concept, but you get the point) that shows different ratio and a different shaped saucer.


Yes, some will say "hey it looks like a Galaxy Class"... i know.

Constitution - Ambassador - Galaxy design line should be included in STOs 2409 style too, not just the Excelsior and Sovereign design, in my opinion.
Introducing different shaped saucers and other ship parts would give us players much more space to experiment and Cryptic could sell them via the C-Store.


So i think it would be a nice idea to give us some alternatives for our ships.
Especially since most of cryptics starfleet designs have the tendency to be too much filled with edges and other "cool" things. I think a different design aproach (elegant and more fluid shapes) could be a welcome change.

-> -> -> STO players unite and say NO to ARC <- <- <-
T6 Guardian Class design / A 25th century Ambassador refit

Last edited by yreodred; 10-13-2013 at 06:31 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11,103
# 2
10-13-2013, 08:20 PM
^That ship actually doesn't look terrible from the side, and top.


On topic though, I too would like to see more things that are not super pointy sovereign knockoffs.
http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o633/centersolace/189cux9khvl6ojpg_zpsca7ccff0.jpg

So inhumane superweapons, mass murder, and canon nonsense is okay, but speedos are too much for some people.
Commander
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 458
# 3
10-13-2013, 08:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by centersolace View Post
^That ship actually doesn't look terrible from the side, and top.


On topic though, I too would like to see more things that are not super pointy sovereign knockoffs.
I agree it does look really good.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,825
# 4
10-14-2013, 08:31 AM
To be honest, the ship design part of the game (ship tailor) was my favourite part of the game, but sadly in the last years new ships got less and less options to experiment with.


What i miss are just some more options, like the Heavy Cruiser has for example.
Different shaped saucers, different nacelles and so on. Sadly Cryptics devs seem to be focussed on just releasing more and more ships without giving us some options for those we already have.
Personally i find this case pretty irritating, since the newest ships got almost no alternative ship parts. (not to speak of KDF and ROM ships)


For a alternative 2409 Starfleet style, i was thinking about a saucer style like this:


I think the alternative Starfleet style could be summed up with this picture:

Wide saucer, short but different looking nacelles. The ships center of mass being somewhere between saucer and engineering hull. The ships general shape would suggest something like a "push forward" mood.
Additionally the wide saucer makes the ship look different in style than Cryptics favoured egg shape, which i don't like at all.

Such a alternative design would be quite a contrast to the Engineering hull heavy Odyssey, with its egg shaped saucer and streched nacelles. This ships shape just looks bulky and streched to the rear, which makes it look rather imbalanced and fragile.
(huge, oversized nacelles conneded to the hull by slim and fragile pylons...)



I think the Venture GCS style could be a good basis for a alternative 2409 Starfleet style.
(minus its strange looking engineering hull)

But there is one thing i would realy like to ask cryptics ship designers:
Please don't exaggerate everything so much. A certain design idea, no matter how good it is, shouldn't be carried to extremes.
For example the Venture saucer, it doesn't need to be THAT flat. Another example is the Avengers bulky look. I am not against it looking bulky, but the responsible designer made too many elements of that ship look bulky, that's why it looks so cartoonish IMHO.
When designing a Starfleet ship: sometimes, less is more!


When making a ship look fast, just make the general siluette look fast, make the rest look elegant and fluid, don't exaggerate the fast look to the extreme, nor add edges or spikes when not absolutely needed.



Especially in a MMO, i think Starfleet ship designs should reflect the factions philosophy, and not look like a Battlestar, no matter how "cool" the designer may find those designs.

I know that's a fine line and everyone has got another taste. Thats why i would prefer Cryptics designers to make much more optional ship parts for all ships in STO (FED, KDF, ROM).


EDIT:
In my opinion, not every ship part has to be filled with time-consuming details and other knick-knacks, for me the geral shape of a ship and ship parts are much more important to be honest.
So i'd rather see more less detailled ship parts instead of getting one singele highly detailled ship which shapes i dislike.

-> -> -> STO players unite and say NO to ARC <- <- <-
T6 Guardian Class design / A 25th century Ambassador refit

Last edited by yreodred; 10-14-2013 at 08:43 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 129
# 5
10-14-2013, 08:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yreodred View Post
Constitution - Ambassador - Galaxy design line should be included in STOs 2409 style too, not just the Excelsior and Sovereign design, in my opinion.
I guess you must have missed the 2409 Venture-class skin for the Galaxy and Galaxy-X.

I will say though that I do want Venture-class parts made available for the Nebula and Cheyenne classes too as they are both Galaxy-class derived.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,825
# 6
10-14-2013, 03:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by arvistaljik View Post
I guess you must have missed the 2409 Venture-class skin for the Galaxy and Galaxy-X.
Maybe i was not clear enough, my proposal was about creating a different 2409 style for ALL new ships, not just the GCS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arvistaljik View Post
I will say though that I do want Venture-class parts made available for the Nebula and Cheyenne classes too as they are both Galaxy-class derived.
That would be nice, but it would only be done by half.
As i said, the Avenger, Odyssey and other new Starfleet ships should get a additional and different optional style.

Most new released Starfleet ships get no additional ship parts, Romulan and KDF ships too.

I think Cryptic Could sell special ship parts packs containing some sets of Saucers, Nacelles, Pylons and so on. Those ship part packs could be sold as FED Cruiser set, FED Escort set, etc.
I know some ships couldn't use certain parts (like the Star Crusiers, for example) but most of them shouldn't have any problems.
Especially since Starfleet ships are build of distinct components, like engineering Hull, pylons, saucer and nacelles, i think it could be possible to create some generic ship parts.
Even if some ships could only use some more pylons or Nacelles, while other ships like the Odyssey could use all additional parts, we would have a huge amount of possible combinations availlable.
Plus Cryptic would make a lot of cash.


To be honest i am pretty disappointed Cryptic doesn't sell more additional ship parts anymore.

As i already said, i would rather see more different looking ship parts added then just one that is highly detailled. Because, let's be honest no one zooms in all the time to admire every little window on a ship.

-> -> -> STO players unite and say NO to ARC <- <- <-
T6 Guardian Class design / A 25th century Ambassador refit
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 253
# 7
10-14-2013, 05:09 PM
I'll be honest with you. I never liked all the Cryptic-made variations of the ships. In canon, almost all ships of the same class were identical on the outside (although some had different internal layouts, especially less-used ships like the Nebula or D'deridex). The whole idea of kitbashes has never sat well with me, and the only time I can remember kitbashes even being used on-screen was for wreckage at Wolf 359.

Now, that's not to say that Starfleet shouldn't be designing new ships. But I'm actually glad that the new ships are usually a specific model (well, most of the time. Some of the models aren't my style).

Examples:
- When a typical person looks at an Odyssey, he can instantly recognize that as an Odyssey.

- When a typical person looks at a Tactical escort using all Defiant pieces, it's instantly recognizable as a Defiant. -
- When you look at a Tactical escort with the Defiant nacelles, Valiant hull, Sau Paulo nose, and Gallant pods? That's just a freak of engineering.


Point is, for every person like you that wants more options on the ship, there's people like me that love seeing canon ships.

Now, that being said, I'm all for giving players the freedom to play how they want. If you want to make a freak of engineering and give it an NX designation, by all means go ahead. You can see in my sig that I want more options myself, so I do understand.

I still want bare feet.... on ALL costumes.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,825
# 8
10-14-2013, 10:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cuatela View Post
I'll be honest with you. I never liked all the Cryptic-made variations of the ships. In canon, almost all ships of the same class were identical on the outside (although some had different internal layouts, especially less-used ships like the Nebula or D'deridex). The whole idea of kitbashes has never sat well with me, and the only time I can remember kitbashes even being used on-screen was for wreckage at Wolf 359.

Now, that's not to say that Starfleet shouldn't be designing new ships. But I'm actually glad that the new ships are usually a specific model (well, most of the time. Some of the models aren't my style).

Examples:
- When a typical person looks at an Odyssey, he can instantly recognize that as an Odyssey.

- When a typical person looks at a Tactical escort using all Defiant pieces, it's instantly recognizable as a Defiant. -
- When you look at a Tactical escort with the Defiant nacelles, Valiant hull, Sau Paulo nose, and Gallant pods? That's just a freak of engineering.


Point is, for every person like you that wants more options on the ship, there's people like me that love seeing canon ships.

Now, that being said, I'm all for giving players the freedom to play how they want. If you want to make a freak of engineering and give it an NX designation, by all means go ahead. You can see in my sig that I want more options myself, so I do understand.
One of the few thing i really like about STO is its customization.
Maybe because i dislike Cryptics designs most of the time, but i also like diversity.
So building a good looking ship can be quite entertaining, at least for me.

I think everyone should decide for himself how his/her ship should look like, especially since Cryptic (was) set a high value on customization.

Ships would still be reckognizeable, no matter how much you kitbash them. The availlable parts (and those i proposed) wouldn't make ships unrecognizable. A Defiant would still be recognized as a defiant just as well the Odyssey.
Just by adding some more Nacelle alternatives or a different looking Saucers a ship would still be reckognizeable.

Look at the Heavy Cruiser for example, there are various different styles for it, but everyone can easily identify one when seen.

Maybe a short adjustment period would be needed and your mentioned "typical person" wouldn't be confused at all anymore. Just look at the various mirror ship in the game for example.


Personally i really diskile Cryptics 2409 style. It sums up everything i don't like about fan made Starfleet ship designs. I think cryptic should give us at lease some alternatives.

-> -> -> STO players unite and say NO to ARC <- <- <-
T6 Guardian Class design / A 25th century Ambassador refit

Last edited by yreodred; 10-14-2013 at 10:20 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,918
# 9
10-14-2013, 11:06 PM
I would love for ships to have additional part options, For example the Vestas three part options ( for which i was willing to buy the pack for double the price despite only intending to use one of them)

It is dissapointing to have a ship i like spoiled by one or two irritations, E.g the Imperial Nacelles join to the pylon too far forward for me
The Odyssey Class has nacelles that look a bit like they have melted ( looks like the fixed them when making the regent, but forgot to retrofit the Odyssey)

Or the Avenger, would look fine to me EXCEPT the pylons start too far forward on the engineering hull and the neck is too narrow to make the split neck look good , giving it a very squashed look, like a slightly overweight child that will eventually grow into their size, only this ship never grew up

But now to be fair and play devils advocate for the Developers, in this case two items

As i understand it the way in which ship parts are assembled together is very limiting on some designs, often causing clipping and frankenstiens ships which mesh in weird places, things which the devs may have intentionally prevented, and were not just talking bad looking aesthetically, but also floating details which aren't properly connected
( though at this point i also remember that the Regent skin is designed intentionally to have details that can only ever be seen by kitbashing it , showing a capacity for the devs to do the task)

( back to asking )BUT there are many things that perhaps could be done, Pylon placement, We see with the avenger an option to change the pylon angle, why not its placement on the hull to fix the ships squashed look?

Also we have the more easy to deal with Cost of artist time, well I for one would be willing to buy any additional skins at a reasonable price, we have interior bridges to buy, and pre fleet ships we did have a set of Tier 5 skins to buy , so more of the same would be much appreciated, even if these are only minor tweaks like the Celestials nacelles being round instead of flat, or its pylon angle


To sum it up, Personalising our ships Feels very satisfying

( I fly a Soverign/Imperial/Regent/Majestic Hybrid The result being a nice Refitted Soverign look, with a much up armoured Saucer-post Nemisis improvement- and Improved Nacelles- obvious upgrades to the warp coils, with the majestic Neck as it better smothes the saucer with the soverign hull)
http://chaos-sandwhich.deviantart.co...ip-3-407375155
http://chaos-sandwhich.deviantart.co...ip-2-407375017

the result being a ship which keeps the overall shape and feel of the base ship, But one that is mostly mine alone ( i did see another player with the same ship parts once, had a laugh over it)
I would love to continue making custom designs, and i would be sadened to not have the option in future


These are the Voyages on the STO forum, the final frontier. Our continuing mission: to explore Pretentious Posts, to seek out new Overreactions and Misinformation , to boldly experience Cynicism like no man has before.......

Last edited by adverbero; 10-14-2013 at 11:22 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,825
# 10
10-16-2013, 10:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adverbero View Post
I would love for ships to have additional part options, For example the Vestas three part options ( for which i was willing to buy the pack for double the price despite only intending to use one of them)

It is dissapointing to have a ship i like spoiled by one or two irritations, E.g the Imperial Nacelles join to the pylon too far forward for me
The Odyssey Class has nacelles that look a bit like they have melted ( looks like the fixed them when making the regent, but forgot to retrofit the Odyssey)

Or the Avenger, would look fine to me EXCEPT the pylons start too far forward on the engineering hull and the neck is too narrow to make the split neck look good , giving it a very squashed look, like a slightly overweight child that will eventually grow into their size, only this ship never grew up

But now to be fair and play devils advocate for the Developers, in this case two items

As i understand it the way in which ship parts are assembled together is very limiting on some designs, often causing clipping and frankenstiens ships which mesh in weird places, things which the devs may have intentionally prevented, and were not just talking bad looking aesthetically, but also floating details which aren't properly connected
( though at this point i also remember that the Regent skin is designed intentionally to have details that can only ever be seen by kitbashing it , showing a capacity for the devs to do the task)

( back to asking )BUT there are many things that perhaps could be done, Pylon placement, We see with the avenger an option to change the pylon angle, why not its placement on the hull to fix the ships squashed look?

Also we have the more easy to deal with Cost of artist time, well I for one would be willing to buy any additional skins at a reasonable price, we have interior bridges to buy, and pre fleet ships we did have a set of Tier 5 skins to buy , so more of the same would be much appreciated, even if these are only minor tweaks like the Celestials nacelles being round instead of flat, or its pylon angle


To sum it up, Personalising our ships Feels very satisfying

( I fly a Soverign/Imperial/Regent/Majestic Hybrid The result being a nice Refitted Soverign look, with a much up armoured Saucer-post Nemisis improvement- and Improved Nacelles- obvious upgrades to the warp coils, with the majestic Neck as it better smothes the saucer with the soverign hull)
http://chaos-sandwhich.deviantart.co...ip-3-407375155
http://chaos-sandwhich.deviantart.co...ip-2-407375017

the result being a ship which keeps the overall shape and feel of the base ship, But one that is mostly mine alone ( i did see another player with the same ship parts once, had a laugh over it)
I would love to continue making custom designs, and i would be sadened to not have the option in future
Nice examination!



I just want to show that you one make even more (more or less) good looking ships with the availlable Assault cruiser parts.
Even if Cryptic maybe would disapprove, because:
Starfleet ship: good looking = not intended
Lol


Some examples:

I used to manage to include the ugly Imperial Engineering hull into a not so bad looking general ship shape. Althrough Cryptics designers tried everything possible to prevent that by making it as ugly as possible IMO.



This one consists of imperial nacelles, majestic saucer and majestic engineering hull and Noble pylons.


The thing that's annoying me is that Cryptics designers tend to make holes in certain parts of a ship, especially the pylons. In every combination those holes and spikes are just killing every try to create a fluid and elegant ship design.
I wish they would have just added a additional version of those pylons WITHOUT holes and spikes, just some plain and simple pylons, nothing more.

Little details like this (spikes, holes, cuttings and so on) are just annoying and ruin the fun of creating nice looking ships for me. Don't get me wrong some alien ships are alright to have Spikes and edges and so on, but starfleet ships look just terrible. And that's what Cryptics designers don't see or don't want to see. They obviously seem to thing that everything has to look as "cool" as possible.
While "cool" seems to mean as spiky, edgy and misshaped as possible in their eyes.
Whis is sad IMO, because the opportunity to create a future Starfleet style has been wasted like this by ppl not getting the philosophy behind the matter.


As i already said Cryptics designers are just exaggerate with adding little details instead of focussing on the general shape. I'd rather see more different shaped ship parts availlable, instead of just small changes in detail that look all just as bad as the other.

-> -> -> STO players unite and say NO to ARC <- <- <-
T6 Guardian Class design / A 25th century Ambassador refit

Last edited by yreodred; 10-17-2013 at 01:00 AM.
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