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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 31
03-07-2010, 02:25 PM
Garek always says the thing about Cardassians is their attention to detail.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 32
03-07-2010, 02:40 PM
Without having read the other responses....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nador_Ekoor View Post
1. We know that the Cardassians aren't battle hardened Soldiers like the Klingons or Gorn. Heck, a chief security officer got pounded by Major Kira.
They ARE battle hardened soldiers. They just don't have the size and technology to back it up. For all the talk about how amazing Klingons are, they did just as well against normal humans as Cardassians did. As a generalised thing, the Cardassians are a far more developed combination of the Klingons and Romulans. They are (well, were) highly competant and very willing to use subterfuge and covert methods. But it also looks like they also have an economy totally blitzed out on a colossal military budget like the Klingons.

Quote:
2. We also know that although the Cardassian union expanded, it was limited to a specific sector and the Science/Exploration levels weren't even close to that of the Federation.
It certainly seemed that way, yes. A possible rising power but still local in scope and a definite threat if given an opportunity.

Quote:
If both of these comments are true, how did the Cardassians fight wars against the Federation and Klingons and reach a draw?
Notice how the Cardassian war goes entirely without comment or note by anyone on the Federation side except by those who were involved in it. While it may possibly have been a war as far as the Cardassians were concerned, it seems rather apparent that it was a rather low intensity and ultimately forgettable conflict to the Federation at large. People have tried to argue with me about why the Federation would accept such a rubbish peace treaty if they could smash the Cardassians like an egg if they actually bothered to try; plain and simple, it's the Federation. It doesn't want to smash anyone at all like an egg if it possibly can, and it's very, very clear that they simply didn't give a damn about those territories when it came down to it, that's why the Maquis are so annoyed, because the Federation just doesn't care!

As for the Klingons....the Klingons committed a quarter of their fleet to the war, and kicked seven shades of s*** out of the Cardassians. It's the whole reason they ended up joining the Dominion. They didn't draw against the Klingons, they had managed to stabilise their lines after the initial attack, but only after Sisko ensured they recieved intelligence about it and even saved the Detapa Council personally with the Defiant. One quarter of the Klingon fleet pounded the Cardassian Union into the dirt. Considering the Federation was the largest and msot dangerous faction of the entire war, a full scale war between the Federation and Cardassia would have had the same result.

Quote:
Why were the Galors and Keldons so feared if they were inferior to the Federation's battleships?
You're overstating that somewhat. They are large ships of note, and despite the lower quality of Cardassian technology, it's still competitive enough that a large, heavily armed ship is worth respecting.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 33
03-19-2010, 11:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khorak View Post
Without having read the other responses....

Notice how the Cardassian war goes entirely without comment or note by anyone on the Federation side except by those who were involved in it. While it may possibly have been a war as far as the Cardassians were concerned, it seems rather apparent that it was a rather low intensity and ultimately forgettable conflict to the Federation at large. People have tried to argue with me about why the Federation would accept such a rubbish peace treaty if they could smash the Cardassians like an egg if they actually bothered to try; plain and simple, it's the Federation. It doesn't want to smash anyone at all like an egg if it possibly can, and it's very, very clear that they simply didn't give a damn about those territories when it came down to it, that's why the Maquis are so annoyed, because the Federation just doesn't care!
Without comment, for the most part. However, there are a few things we can learn form this. Whenever pressed about his experiences in the Cardassian War, Chief O'brien changes the subject fairly quickly or brings up the relevant information from his experience, and immediately goes back to doing something else. Captain Benjamin Maxwell of the Phoenix felt strongly enough about the war and residual Cardassian activity in the sector to ignore orders and go after smugglers. When O'brien spoke to him, they spoke of experiences in the war, and to me it almost sounded like old soldiers talking about Vietnam. Cardassians may not have been the most technologically advanced or skilled soldiers, but they have a lot of experience in brutal slugging wars. To my knowledge, Cardassians also had no qualms about attacking civilian targets, such as Captain Maxwell's family. The Klingon invasion of Cardassian space was a complete surprise to the Cardassian military because the vast majority of their intelligence officers were dead from the attempt to destroy the Founders. Also, the Klingon fleet had to cross through Federation space to get to Cardassian space, so it's entirely likely that the majority of the Cardassian fleet was elsewhere.

And I think it has lees to do with giving a damn about the territories than it does about giving a damn about peace. The Federation is a strong military power, but also a very reluctant one, kind of like Great Britain during the early years of the second World War.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 34
03-20-2010, 03:03 AM
I didn't read the whole thread, so sorry if it was already mentioned, but it seems that male Cardassians make lousy engineers, at least when you ask Cardassian women.

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Gilora_Rejal

I would see Cardassian males either as Security or Science with the more brutal attacks, like plasma grenade, neutral neutralizer etc.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 35
03-20-2010, 03:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpt_Raimus
Cardassians may not have been the most technologically advanced or skilled soldiers, but they have a lot of experience in brutal slugging wars. To my knowledge, Cardassians also had no qualms about attacking civilian targets, such as Captain Maxwell's family.
They were indeed enormously vicious. As a fascist state, that's not surprising. But as I said before, my personal opinion is that the Cardassians were, in that Star Trek way of course, very good soldiers. While incredibly belligerent and clearly overconfident, the Union didn't take any attempted war against the Federation lightly. Both times they were seen in TNG they were trying to secure for themselves a firm strategic advantage before beginning hostilities; simply charging at Starfleet vessels didn't ever end well for them in TNG. Gul Macet attacked the Enterprise while its shields were down; the bridge crew seemed puzzled more than threatened, until Picard decided they had been patient enough, and then they manhandled that Galor effortlessly. The attack on the unshielded Phoenix went even worse.

Quote:
The Klingon invasion of Cardassian space was a complete surprise to the Cardassian military because the vast majority of their intelligence officers were dead from the attempt to destroy the Founders. Also, the Klingon fleet had to cross through Federation space to get to Cardassian space, so it's entirely likely that the majority of the Cardassian fleet was elsewhere.
There would be nowhere for the Cardassian fleet to be except IN the Cardassian Union. They suffered a massive surprise attack to be sure, but that doesn't change the fact that even with some advance warning and direct intervention to save their government, they simply could not stand up to only a quarter of the Klingon fleet operating at the end of their supply line instead of in home territories.

In the final analysis, you can't really conclude that the Klingons would be able to reduce the Federation or Romulans to such a state so quickly with an expedition of that size. Frankly, if they could they would have.

Quote:
And I think it has lees to do with giving a damn about the territories than it does about giving a damn about peace. The Federation is a strong military power, but also a very reluctant one, kind of like Great Britain during the early years of the second World War.
I don't disagree in any meaningful way, the problem is always going to boil down to the Federation simply not being willing to go all curb stompy when it can negotiate peace. An argument that the Federation would have made the effort if it were capable of it doesn't really hold up to how the Federation tends to act, and doesn't mean the Cardassian Union was a bigger threat because of it. The Feds would negotiate terms with an angry hobo as much as it would the Dominion, even putting aside the fact that they probably have far larger threats that can't be allowed to take advantage of the shifted resources, like the Romulans.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 36
03-20-2010, 07:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nador_Ekoor View Post
1. We know that the Cardassians aren't battle hardened Soldiers like the Klingons or Gorn. Heck, a chief security officer got pounded by Major Kira.

2. We also know that although the Cardassian union expanded, it was limited to a specific sector and the Science/Exploration levels weren't even close to that of the Federation.

If both of these comments are true, how did the Cardassians fight wars against the Federation and Klingons and reach a draw? Why were the Galors and Keldons so feared if they were inferior to the Federation's battleships?
i suspect the feds always pushed for a peaceful solution or ceasefire. i suspect the feds would have won eventually but at the cost of many lives so they where happy to go for the draw so to speak

the klingons however destroyed them easily and it was only really the federation who held them back so that they would not hand the quadrant to the dominion, as their campaign slowed down after the episode way of the warrior and just fortified the territory they had rather than push on with any conviction
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