Career Officer
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 55
# 1 It may be time to let PVP go.
12-02-2013, 03:22 PM
PVP in STO has been mixed. At first we were all new to it when the game was in beta and launched. Of course every new thing is exciting and interesting. Many of us saw it as a fun diversion from the rest of the PVE. We went back to that PVE when we had had our fill of a good few matches.

As time progressed PVP became understood then overunderstood. Calculations were made on best ships and best configurations and best groups. With changes came new calculations and new bests and PVP became a place for the hardcore. Most others who tried new things got shut out or so frustrated with it that they found it not worth playing. Ground PVP has become such as it's queues can last almost hours.

It has been an accepted thing that MMO's come with a pvp element. World of ******** as a popular example has a vast PVE environment and a PVP attachment. SWTOR as an example of another space MMO shares the same. But there are other games. Planetside 2 as another free spacey MMO is all PVP, there is no pve content to it.

But why let PVP go? I put forward that PVP is at the moment sickly and there are so many other strengths we could bolster in the game.

But Why PVP ?:

In the TNG episode Peak Performance Diana tells a curious Data that competition is a means humans use to know how they truly measure up. Data adds "To avoid decieving one's self" PVP is probably that desire created in a digital battlefield to see this. However with computer assistance or by it being something on a computer to begin with, not relying on our wits so much as an absolute template then we are not seeking challenge but only victory. We all measure up to the same bar if we all employ the same or near same ships, equipment, bridge officer powers, etc. We want to see how we compare to others, to know we're at our best, but are we at our best here, in STO pvp, or are we simply lacking or having too much of a particular build?

Why Remove PVP?

To remove PVP would remove an aspect of the game which has existed since launch. It was even mostly created as a means for Klingons to have gameplay. At the game's launch Klingons were the "monster" faction akin to how it was(is?) done in Lord of the Rings online. This was, however, unsatisfactory to many Klingon players. Now, with the developments that have occured in the game and the large development done in Legacy Of Romulus, Klingons are more fully realized. PVP is no longer required for Klingons to have full content.

The issue of balance is a big one for pvp. Because it is so vitaly important to PVP players that things remain in balance to the nth degree the PVE side of things can find itself experiencing shifts and unexpected changes to gear or powers. For example it used to be that reverse shield polarity had quite a lot of potency during the game's launch. To balance it in pvp however its timer was drastically reduced.

On the issue of balance, ships and factions may almost seem too identical to one another in functionality. Beyond cannons a Klingon and Federation ship may appear very similar. When PVP balance is no longer a concern these ships wouldn't have to be balanced against one another but could instead bring their own unique powers, effects or loadouts to the game.

Developer time:

For Cryptic, fixing PVP will be a matter of resources, time and a great deal of testing. This time could be spent on the current projects in the works and the coding efforts they're doing now for exmpanding the game's functionality. Remember any of these functions they implament would have to be rebalanced for pvp and may lose their overall effect or the fun they have been just to keep it balanced.

Conclusion: (almost done )

This is a PVE game. The developers have given most of their love their time and effort into its PVE aspect. We have hundreds of missions. We have weekly episodes. We have STFs and Fleet Actions. There are fleet starbases and mines and spires. There's a whole battleground where we work cooperativly to win an objective. A whole lot outside of pvp.

Removing pvp we could enhance these things. A klingon on the ground or romulan need not be the same as the Fed, not need the same exact abilities, powers, etc. They'd be balanced against pve opponents instead of other players and not need specific balance. Ships could be done the same way. With the time saved, production could be done on more or even larger STFs encompasing more ships or people.

Let PVP be where it seems best served, in games dedicated to it. Let STO be a game to thrive even though it doesn't have the "must be there" element of PVP. Let PVP go in STO.
Career Officer
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 55
# 2
12-02-2013, 03:40 PM
Seems my threat got moved. Unlike the "Why do Pve'ers fear a pvp revamp?" thread, which has stayed. I've been pushed into the one thread ensuring hostility and rejection of my idea. I think a moderator has it in for me.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 500
# 3
12-02-2013, 03:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sigurdross View Post
PVP in STO has been mixed. At first we were all new to it when the game was in beta and launched. Of course every new thing is exciting and interesting. Many of us saw it as a fun diversion from the rest of the PVE. We went back to that PVE when we had had our fill of a good few matches.

As time progressed PVP became understood then overunderstood. Calculations were made on best ships and best configurations and best groups. With changes came new calculations and new bests and PVP became a place for the hardcore. Most others who tried new things got shut out or so frustrated with it that they found it not worth playing. Ground PVP has become such as it's queues can last almost hours.

It has been an accepted thing that MMO's come with a pvp element. World of ******** as a popular example has a vast PVE environment and a PVP attachment. SWTOR as an example of another space MMO shares the same. But there are other games. Planetside 2 as another free spacey MMO is all PVP, there is no pve content to it.

But why let PVP go? I put forward that PVP is at the moment sickly and there are so many other strengths we could bolster in the game.

But Why PVP ?:

In the TNG episode Peak Performance Diana tells a curious Data that competition is a means humans use to know how they truly measure up. Data adds "To avoid decieving one's self" PVP is probably that desire created in a digital battlefield to see this. However with computer assistance or by it being something on a computer to begin with, not relying on our wits so much as an absolute template then we are not seeking challenge but only victory. We all measure up to the same bar if we all employ the same or near same ships, equipment, bridge officer powers, etc. We want to see how we compare to others, to know we're at our best, but are we at our best here, in STO pvp, or are we simply lacking or having too much of a particular build?

Why Remove PVP?

To remove PVP would remove an aspect of the game which has existed since launch. It was even mostly created as a means for Klingons to have gameplay. At the game's launch Klingons were the "monster" faction akin to how it was(is?) done in Lord of the Rings online. This was, however, unsatisfactory to many Klingon players. Now, with the developments that have occured in the game and the large development done in Legacy Of Romulus, Klingons are more fully realized. PVP is no longer required for Klingons to have full content.

The issue of balance is a big one for pvp. Because it is so vitaly important to PVP players that things remain in balance to the nth degree the PVE side of things can find itself experiencing shifts and unexpected changes to gear or powers. For example it used to be that reverse shield polarity had quite a lot of potency during the game's launch. To balance it in pvp however its timer was drastically reduced.

On the issue of balance, ships and factions may almost seem too identical to one another in functionality. Beyond cannons a Klingon and Federation ship may appear very similar. When PVP balance is no longer a concern these ships wouldn't have to be balanced against one another but could instead bring their own unique powers, effects or loadouts to the game.

Developer time:

For Cryptic, fixing PVP will be a matter of resources, time and a great deal of testing. This time could be spent on the current projects in the works and the coding efforts they're doing now for exmpanding the game's functionality. Remember any of these functions they implament would have to be rebalanced for pvp and may lose their overall effect or the fun they have been just to keep it balanced.

Conclusion: (almost done )

This is a PVE game. The developers have given most of their love their time and effort into its PVE aspect. We have hundreds of missions. We have weekly episodes. We have STFs and Fleet Actions. There are fleet starbases and mines and spires. There's a whole battleground where we work cooperativly to win an objective. A whole lot outside of pvp.

Removing pvp we could enhance these things. A klingon on the ground or romulan need not be the same as the Fed, not need the same exact abilities, powers, etc. They'd be balanced against pve opponents instead of other players and not need specific balance. Ships could be done the same way. With the time saved, production could be done on more or even larger STFs encompasing more ships or people.

Let PVP be where it seems best served, in games dedicated to it. Let STO be a game to thrive even though it doesn't have the "must be there" element of PVP. Let PVP go in STO.
I agree on all points.

Letting things linger as they are is only stretching things out in a Waiting For Godot kind of way.

Last edited by amalefactor; 12-02-2013 at 05:19 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 55
# 4
12-02-2013, 03:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by amalefactor View Post
I find it very odd to see a post like this being moved to the PVP section (may as well tie a steak around someone's neck and throw them into a dog pound), while a long-running front page general discussion post is titled "why are PVEers so afraid of PVP?" or something like that.

Oh well. I agree with just about all of this, but I'm sorry that you were moved here of all places.
They could have at least given me the quiet dignity of locking or deleting my thread. I wonder what mod I pissed off.
Career Officer
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 55
# 5
12-02-2013, 03:44 PM
Also I notice the word ******** is apparently contraband. Who knew.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 862
# 6
12-02-2013, 03:47 PM
They won't do it. People still play it. Cryptic spends no money on it, so removing it would remove customers that require little to no development investment to keep.

See, nice Hope the rest of the thread stays that way for ya.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 477
# 7
12-02-2013, 03:49 PM
You make a convincing argument.
But I'd be a little sad if pvp were to go.

In pvp I get a real rush playing against live opponents.
And while I do enjoy the PvE aspect, if it was a pve exclusive game, I'd be a bit bored after a while.
I like jumping into Ker'rat or c&hs/arenas after a few jam packed hours of pve.
Why ?
I need different loadouts and skills to be halfway decent in pvp. I fly a pve setup and a completely different pvp setup.
Its breaks up the routine, and lets me try new things.

While I agree resources should be divided very carefully for development, I don't see why 5- 10% of the budget can't go to a small team of pvp devs.
Really, all pvp needs is a little variety in maps, and game types. And a selector to avoid premades if you're going in solo. I don't think the investment would be wasteful.
But if it is a money pit and costly to do as I suggested...then maybe You are right. But as opposed to scrapping it, maybe just leave it as is. And discontinue working on it.

And yes I realize the copycat syndrome you mentioned does exist. making everyone equally devasting in pvp.
Still, I enjoy the challenge even if pvp superstars blast me into a million bits...

You know what I enjoy most in pvp....not killing someone, but surviving sustained fire from 3 to 4 enemy ships for an extended amout of time. Something about that makes me giddy.
If I take one of them with me I'm even more giddy.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,948
# 8
12-02-2013, 03:51 PM
Cryptic/PWE has already let STO PvP go. They obviously don't care to test how power changes (aka the Gravity Well 'fix') affect PvP balance -- and don't get me start on the special consoles...
^^^
Cryptic has NEVER done PvP well in ANY of their MMOs dating all the way back to 'City of Heroes'. the fact they devote no real Dev resources to PvP (Something in PvP may get the occasional look by a Dev in one of their spare moments, IF said something is also affecting PvE aspects of STO); but the current state of STO PvP shows the Dev team HAS 'let it go', by doing nothing new for it, or having no one dedicated to reviewing actual PvP power balanced issues that are well expressed.

Why do they leave in the PvP queue systems as they exist? becuase to take them out would also require programming work and time, so they are content to let them remain for whomever still wants to subject themselves to 'Gravity Wells Online' (with a side of special console 'cheese')

IMO, sad, but unfortunately true.
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=91861979000&dateline=  1340755546
PWE Drone says: "Your STO community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 694
# 9
12-02-2013, 03:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sigurdross View Post
Seems my threat got moved. Unlike the "Why do Pve'ers fear a pvp revamp?" thread, which has stayed. I've been pushed into the one thread ensuring hostility and rejection of my idea. I think a moderator has it in for me.
Perhaps the mod thought that the topic of removing PvP from the game, was within the purview of the PvP community, where the question of why the PvE community apparently objects to PvP receiving any further development was within the purview of the community in general?

In any case, if they're going to remove PvP from STO, I would prefer they do it sooner than later, so I can get on with whatever game I'll be playing after this one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig "Zinc" Zinkievich
The Federation and the Klingon Empire will be competing for influence and resources throughout the galaxy and players can influence the results through PvP battles and a system we're calling Competitive PvE.
Career Officer
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 55
# 10
12-02-2013, 03:57 PM
I want to thank you all for beign so nice about this and being good sports. This thread I still feel was moved as an assassination attempt. I could be wrong, but still it's a gut feeling.

Again thank you all for acknowledging my points and even giving them thought.
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