Lieutenant
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 73
# 41
11-06-2013, 06:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by majortiraomega View Post
Operatives are equivalent to Klingon Raiders in space, both have the ability to oneshot when timed correctly. When timed incorrectly, they fall fairly quickly.


That's a rather significant downplay on the cat's jumping trait. Players still play Ferasans on the KDF side, yet Ferasans do not have +10% dodge. Why? Jump Height + Pounce. The Jump Height allows cats to get jump flank shots, something that all other races are incapable of performing, unless their target is crouched. Pounce, which came out long after lunge (there was no cat "nerf"), is a very short cooldown ability with a built in knockback. Both of these things provide a significant advantage to cats.

The +10% dodge was just extra icing on the cake, it wasn't needed at all. Free dodge in the form of a racial stat, tossed in with two other full stats, is overpowered. There is no opportunity cost, unlike other existing items that grant +dodge. Dodge is a very important mechanic in Ground PvP, but if someone has a 100% dodge chance, that's not a mechanic anymore. Every weapon and attack in the game then becomes "half damage vs players" when dodge chance is at 100% full time. Most players have weapons that deal about 125 damage/second on average. A medic can provide about 85-115 healing/second on average. If every attack is now dodged, that 125 DPS player is now a 62.5 DPS player. Then we wonder why some medics or equipment technicians take 3 people to kill without spike damage.

Dodge is out of control at the moment. Hopefully the devs can find some way to bring it back into balance in the future. Yes, it will hurt caitains, making them less powerful, but it needs to happen.


As Nulonu has said, if you don't think Willpower is working, by all means don't spec into it. We won't mind one bit. Resistance to the cane is working, there are times where it's activation doesn't even affect me longer than half a second. +Resistance to a control power isn't the same as immunity to a control power. At least when it comes to stun and slow, they are working as described.


Yeah, it might become a minor problem in the future, but for people that use it there's always split beam rifles from range to take them down.
I agree, cloakers on ground are the same as cloakers in space. I have said this before, its all opportunistic now.

The nerf i was referring to is the fact that covert, a cat specific trait, is now shared among pretty much all species it seems. :/ Not to mention that covert has gotten a counter now, as i pointed out earlier, through the nukara rep gear. Not that i'm complaining about the counter one bit, I am simply saying that, it was a main point to having the cats. My main point though, is the dodge bonus is a specific bonus to having the c-store species. And your point to klink cats is acknowledged but, they do have a species specific trait as well.. and its not being nerfed. The jump height is useful but, lets be honest it would only be useful by playing in assault as being in arena with that bonus alone isn't going to even matter. Also, you forgot one main thing about your above math... you did not calculate damage resistance debuffs and such. Instead of nerfing everything to dummy it down, so to say, we should teach people how to ground pvp.

Lets be honest here for a second, as you are a ground pvper the same as me. Are you saying that you can not successfully take down other players in a 1v1? I mean because what you just said, is basically that a sci and an engineer can not be solo'd because they can out heal. lol.

We have to calculate everything into the mix and not just a few things. You have debuffs, power buffs, roots, holds, stuns, knockbacks, etc etc etc that you still have to calculate. I haven't found anyone that I couldn't kill at least once in ground. The dodge makes it challenging and everyone is welcome to use it.




As far as willpower goes, well... since you don't mind me running low willpower, I actually do which gives me points that i can spec into something else. Lol. I have been running only 4 points into willpower and I still get the very same resistances you do. And well, the stuns and such don't work as they should. You should have some sort of resistance to stuns and slows however there is none at all. I just got finished testing it. :/

Like I said, it is most likely a problem with diminishing returns being screwed up on willpower or at least that's how it appears. Feel free to test it yourself.


"Working as intended"... 1 year later they "fix" it.

Last edited by emp1591; 11-06-2013 at 06:57 PM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 245
# 42
11-06-2013, 07:20 PM
Photon grenade launcher is a funny one. On one hand it's the only grenade that doesn't draw a circle but on the other hand it's the only grenade that doesn't explode on impact. That smoking grenade landing next to me is usually enough to get me to move even if I didn't happen to see it incoming. Far different IMO from the players who only throw plasma grenades with distortion field to take advantage of the bug with the circle. I really don't think adding a circle for photon launcher would make much difference but it certainly wouldn't hurt anything.

As far as dodge, I guess that depends on what kind of game you want. I like tactical battles that take longer, move/counter move etc. If you want a faster paced game then that I could see dodge being an obstacle. With the fix to med vanguard, medic sci durability is going to go down too btw as well as the team members the medic is healing so that may speed the game up some anyway.

I have to agree with emp about cats. They cost zen for a reason. When the knock back from pounce isn't bypassing resists as it is on holo deck they'll be more in line as opposed to always having that knock down disable handy. I'd actually like to see more cstore options for races to play as. Aenar anyone? Or how about a defected Changling. Why not a Salt creature? They may be dumb zombies in the mission but they were intelligent shape shifters in the show iirc. Wouldn't be any more or less implausible then dinos with lazers on their heads.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,745
# 43
11-06-2013, 07:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by emp1591 View Post
The nerf i was referring to is the fact that covert, a cat specific trait, is now shared among pretty much all species it seems. :/ Not to mention that covert has gotten a counter now, as i pointed out earlier, through the nukara rep gear. Not that i'm complaining about the counter one bit, I am simply saying that, it was a main point to having the cats. My main point though, is the dodge bonus is a specific bonus to having the c-store species.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archived Post View Post
  • Updated Trait: Covert:
  • It now correctly works on Ground and not Space.
  • Corrected Stealth Values to be more realistic: 10%, 20% and 30% for each rank of the Trait.
  • Players have Rank 2.
Until this point in time, the Covert trait was broken, it did not work at all for ground combat. When the fix came out, I had been playing for three weeks, and I had a MACO Mk XI armor and weapon from STF runs. My character was human with the Techie and Covert traits. So, I'd go around the map, decloaking with a sniper rifle in shooter mode, and sniping players. At that point in time though, I didn't understand the significance of buffs, thus I didn't use them. Over the next two months I slowly picked up on it. Those were good times, the ground queues were a lot more active, and I was the only one with covert for the longest time. There were few premades and the majority of those that queued were just as new as I. Covert was never a cat only trait, Ferasians have a +Stealth bonus as well as the ability to pick up Covert. However, Covert itself has always been a multiracial trait. You may not have noticed it because the majority of players did not have it until the trait revamp with Legacy of Romulus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by emp1591 View Post
And your point to klink cats is acknowledged but, they do have a species specific trait as well.. and its not being nerfed. The jump height is useful but, lets be honest it would only be useful by playing in assault as being in arena with that bonus alone isn't going to even matter. Also, you forgot one main thing about your above math... you did not calculate damage resistance debuffs and such. Instead of nerfing everything to dummy it down, so to say, we should teach people how to ground pvp.
Ferasians have the unique trait, Predatory Instincts: +5% Damage with Melee Attacks,, +75% Jump Height, +5% Stealth, +10% Exploit Damage, +5 Perception. The trait is powerful, but it doesn't excessively increase their survivability. Putting dodge under some form or limitation promotes build diversity. If one mechanic provides far superior surviability to anything else in the game, then it limits build diversity. Dodge should be equal to other surviability options, not superior. Someone with a 100% dodge chance has superior survivability over someone with 75% health damage resistance and 75% shield damage resistance (maximums in respected areas).

Dodge cannot be reduced, damage resistances can be reduced. Someone stacking 100% dodge is completely bypassing part of the damage resistance mechanic. If they only had 50% dodge, they would only be taking advantage of the dodge mechanic half the time. A resistance mechanic with a 100% uptime is not a true mechanic, it's a passive. Dodge was never meant to be a passive. If it were possible to get 100% Critical chance I'm certain you'd agree that such a thing would be too powerful. The reverse is true for dodge, 100% dodge chance is no longer a "chance", it's a passive. Critical chance would no longer be a "chance" if you could critically hit 100% of the time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by emp1591 View Post
Lets be honest here for a second, as you are a ground pvper the same as me. Are you saying that you can not successfully take down other players in a 1v1? I mean because what you just said, is basically that a sci and an engineer can not be solo'd because they can out heal. lol.

We have to calculate everything into the mix and not just a few things. You have debuffs, power buffs, roots, holds, stuns, knockbacks, etc etc etc that you still have to calculate. I haven't found anyone that I couldn't kill at least once in ground. The dodge makes it challenging and everyone is welcome to use it.
Don't get me wrong, Dodge is a vital mechanic in Ground PvP, just as a Critical hit is a vital mechanic for ground. You can't completely eliminate dodge for the same reason you can't eliminate critical hits. Dodge is meant to provide spike damage resistances in the same way that critical hits are meant to provide spikes in damage dealt. Neither mechanic should ever reach a 100% chance, it creates game imbalance. At the moment, everyone can die in a 1v1, it's impossible to stack dodge to 100% chance without multiple team ambush fields. Dodge is still balanced in a 1v1 situation because it's not a 100% chance mechanic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by emp1591 View Post
As far as willpower goes, well... since you don't mind me running low willpower, I actually do which gives me points that i can spec into something else. Lol. I have been running only 4 points into willpower and I still get the very same resistances you do. And well, the stuns and such don't work as they should. You should have some sort of resistance to stuns and slows however there is none at all. I just got finished testing it. :/

Like I said, it is most likely a problem with diminishing returns being screwed up on willpower or at least that's how it appears. Feel free to test it yourself.
I can tell the difference between a character with a 5 in willpower compared to a character with a 6 in willpower. The difference between a 4 in willpower and a 6 in willpower is 10% more resistance. Not overly significant, but I consider it to be a reasonable advantage. It's a build fork, I consider it to be useful, you don't. If such things didn't exist, there would be very little build variance in ground PvP. Also, if you aren't getting a stun resistance buff on expiration of a given stun, toss it up here with the name of the ability. Hawk may see it and take a closer look.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,745
# 44
11-06-2013, 08:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nulonu View Post

I'd actually like to see more cstore options for races to play as. Aenar anyone? Or how about a defected Changling. Why not a Salt creature? They may be dumb zombies in the mission but they were intelligent shape shifters in the show iirc. Wouldn't be any more or less implausible then dinos with lazers on their heads.
Here's an idea Nulonu, I'd imagine they would be quite popular in the C-store.

Voth Spec Ops Elite Commando - Play as a Voth Spec Ops officer. Note: You are restricted to the Dyson Sphere Ground Battlezone. Level your character by defeating unsuspecting players in the battlezone.

"Level 50" base hit points: 1,800
+25% base run speed
+100% Dodge chance

Weapons:
Antiproton Raptor Blades - 150 physical damage per slash - 25% chance for unresistable knockback per slash
Voth Elite Antiproton Compression Pistol - 5% chance to deal +500% damage to target for a single attack

Abilities:
Phasing Stealth Module IV - Immunity to all damage and debuffs when cloaked
Motion Accelerator III
Lunge IV
Target Optics III
Rally Cry IV
Strike Team III
Tactical Initiative III
Sweeping Strikes III

Traits:
Superior Covert
Superior Peak Health
Superior Aggressive
Superior Soldier
Superior Acute Senses
Superior Lucky
Superior Strike Team Specialist
Superior Physical Strength

Shield:
None

Armor:
Voth Advanced Recoil Compensating Armor

Devices:
Race may not use devices, hypos, or similar items.

Enjoy
Disclaimer: This post is intended to be humorous. Please do not take it seriously
Lieutenant
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 74
# 45
11-06-2013, 08:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by emp1591 View Post
Well, what we are seeing in ground is actually opportunist. Cloakers are the main problem as far as one hit kills go. They wait until you engage in battle and watch your buffs as they see your resistance power and healing power being stripped they uncloak on you and basically one hit kill you. To decrease dodge on cats would end up making the point of even owning a cat to be pointless. The only thing we caitians would have would be jumping power at that point as the caitians powers have been nerfed by providing all but pounce to pretty much every race. lol. And well, if they decrease dodge overall on all toons then what we are facing is players being killed faster and a huge increase in one shots. From what I understood from the dev, he wants to try to average dodge through limiting the ways it can be stacked so that all toons are on equal playing ground, right? So... again basically the caitian becomes pointless to have as everyone will have pretty much the same amount of dodge. In my honest opinion dodge is just fine the way it is.

And well, actually what we are looking at is either broken willpower or tons of other things broken and just resists willpower. lol. So what tira is actually describing is a resistance to resistance, without even realizing it. lol. This is possible but I would hope incorrect as that means cryptic faces bigger problems. I saw tira mention that there is resistance to the cane. Might i point out that you can accurately resist the same amount to the cane with no more than 4 points into willpower as you can with 9. This leads me to believe that the diminishing returns are completely screwed up. Well, as far as stun is concerned their is no resistance at all and that goes along with immobilize.

As far as the adapted maco gun goes, tira forgot one very important fact.... it deals kinetic damage and not energy damage, so it does more hp damage and resists shields even against someone with medical vanguard. However, for the most part it is easy to dodge the attack unless of course you have someone running an immobilize proc to hold you. I could see where it could be OP if used correctly but, from what i have seen by people running it.. no one has the skills or the above knowledge to run it to that effectiveness and there are better and more efficient OP tactics to use so its not going to gain much attention by the elite ground pvpers. I agree with you when you say, it is not a large problem but, I will say it could escalate in the very far future.
Indeed a nerf to dodge would have cloakers all excited. The nerf to medical vanguard is enough of a bone for them to chew on for now I think.

Nice testing on the whole resistance/willpower issue. Too bad about it being so.. cryptic lol.

Yup, the adapted maco gun issue isn't that big atm. I brought it up because I kinda like the set, but don't like not knowing if it's working correctly.
Selun'x Alien Sci - Zarza Reman Tac
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 245
# 46
11-06-2013, 09:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by majortiraomega View Post
Here's an idea Nulonu, I'd imagine they would be quite popular in the C-store.

Voth Spec Ops Elite Commando - Play as a Voth Spec Ops officer. Note: You are restricted to the Dyson Sphere Ground Battlezone. Level your character by defeating unsuspecting players in the battlezone.

"Level 50" base hit points: 1,800
+25% base run speed
+100% Dodge chance

Weapons:
Antiproton Raptor Blades - 150 physical damage per slash - 25% chance for unresistable knockback per slash
Voth Elite Antiproton Compression Pistol - 5% chance to deal +500% damage to target for a single attack

Abilities:
Phasing Stealth Module IV - Immunity to all damage and debuffs when cloaked
Motion Accelerator III
Lunge IV
Target Optics III
Rally Cry IV
Strike Team III
Tactical Initiative III
Sweeping Strikes III

Traits:
Superior Covert
Superior Peak Health
Superior Aggressive
Superior Soldier
Superior Acute Senses
Superior Lucky
Superior Strike Team Specialist
Superior Physical Strength

Shield:
None

Armor:
Voth Advanced Recoil Compensating Armor

Devices:
Race may not use devices, hypos, or similar items.

Enjoy
Disclaimer: This post is intended to be humorous. Please do not take it seriously
Only if it came with a Rex Azaria (or w/e that min-boss was called) to ride around on.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,745
# 47
11-06-2013, 09:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by solarstreak View Post
Indeed a nerf to dodge would have cloakers all excited. The nerf to medical vanguard is enough of a bone for them to chew on for now I think.

Nice testing on the whole resistance/willpower issue. Too bad about it being so.. cryptic lol.

Yup, the adapted maco gun issue isn't that big atm. I brought it up because I kinda like the set, but don't like not knowing if it's working correctly.
I play science officers more than I play tactical anymore. The vanguard changes won't change much for most players that weren't using elite fleet gear. I personally use the Omega Force set or Adapted MACO + Nukara Cryo Healing Shield. The two piece bonus on those sets won't trigger vanguard anymore, but it was so very minor compared to the elite fleet armor and shield problem. Having been on both sides of the coin, a medic is still going to be the second most difficult target to bring down with an operative (the first being a situationally aware enemy neutralization engineer).

I knew there would be opposition when I posted my first comment on it, but I decided to throw it on the table. Eventually, dodge needs to be brought back into line. It might not be this Season, but I hope it happens sometime in the future.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 198
# 48
11-07-2013, 01:53 AM
I haven't played a ground pvp match since they patched away my personal playstyle with the season four 'improvements'.

So how is it handling nowadays? From what I read it is slightly less broken than by the time I left?

And in case you were wondering what exactly my dealbreaker was/is. No longer being able to trigger powers inbetween primary fire cycles but having to wait for the cycle to complete. I might have even took that and adapted but applying that to dodgeroll was just the silly thing that made me leave that particular type of play. ''Oh look a cryo 'nade, *double-tap movement key*, let's just finish this firin.... *frozen*''
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,745
# 49
11-07-2013, 07:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dukedom01 View Post
I haven't played a ground pvp match since they patched away my personal playstyle with the season four 'improvements'.

So how is it handling nowadays? From what I read it is slightly less broken than by the time I left?

And in case you were wondering what exactly my dealbreaker was/is. No longer being able to trigger powers inbetween primary fire cycles but having to wait for the cycle to complete. I might have even took that and adapted but applying that to dodgeroll was just the silly thing that made me leave that particular type of play. ''Oh look a cryo 'nade, *double-tap movement key*, let's just finish this firin.... *frozen*''
The community is small, but gameplay is relatively balanced compared to space. Right now there are a few problems. 75% of the better known problems are getting fixed with Season 8.

Animation lock still exists, it's why nobody uses Assault Miniguns or Blast Assaults in PvP. Full Auto Rifles, such as the Omega Force Autocarbine, are still used in PvP despite the brief animation lockout. You can still move, but you can't double tap to roll when in a firing animation. For most weapons, the firing animation is 0.5 seconds.

If you do come back, you should know that ground PvP has changed a lot since season five when I joined. If you haven't played since season four, then you have a significant amount of relearning to do. Ground PvP is very enjoyable, but it's also very fast paced, and many of the players that run right now have been in ground PvP for a while.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 74
# 50
11-07-2013, 09:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by majortiraomega View Post
I play science officers more than I play tactical anymore. The vanguard changes won't change much for most players that weren't using elite fleet gear. I personally use the Omega Force set or Adapted MACO + Nukara Cryo Healing Shield. The two piece bonus on those sets won't trigger vanguard anymore, but it was so very minor compared to the elite fleet armor and shield problem. Having been on both sides of the coin, a medic is still going to be the second most difficult target to bring down with an operative (the first being a situationally aware enemy neutralization engineer).

I knew there would be opposition when I posted my first comment on it, but I decided to throw it on the table. Eventually, dodge needs to be brought back into line. It might not be this Season, but I hope it happens sometime in the future.
Exactly when was dodge ever "in line", if it's not right now? The omega ground set has been around as long as I can remember, along with the ability to crouch. That is a huge chunk of the dodge stat right there.
Selun'x Alien Sci - Zarza Reman Tac
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