Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,643
# 21
11-11-2013, 10:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by antoniosalieri View Post
Regardless of what ever symantics we want to use... bottom line is... with rapid fire or scatter volley I get the exact same amount of procs as with out those skills. I don't all of a sudden end up with a 5 stack of a 2.5% chance proc.

Clearly one of three possible options are happening.

1) This is intended... in which case the people to whom those intentions belong are Morons. Caps on the "M" intended.

2) It is indeed not intended to work that way... and the fact it has yet to be changed leads me to believe there should likely be a cap somewhere in this line as well referencing someone.

3) I am the one somehow at fault... by being the most lucky person ever to play STO... cause every time I use faw my RNG seems to double.

What ever it is that is happening with faw... intended or not its game breaking imo. Frankly I been swinging a light saber for a almost a week now instead of treking and I'm starting to not miss it much.

PS I get that faw is adding a 5th hit to the 4 hit beam cycle... but all 4 hits of a beam cycle don't get there own proc roles... So I guess I am saying. Why exactly is the extra 5th hit with faw getting its own proc roll ? The engine doesn't act that way with a skill like rapid fire... not that I think it should.
its not symantics, its a totally different type of proc. CRF and FAW effect the number of shots per cycle, but the cycle is still 3 or 4 seconds long, it doesn't change that. thats why bort is right when he sais those skill dont increase the chance of getting something like a phaser proc.

there are a growing number of other procs that are different though, they are per shot. one you can actually parce and leaves an entry is the valdor console. a 2.5 % chance every single shot that it will go off. in my parceing, i find this happens every 0 to 7 seconds im shooting at a target, every 0-4 when im using CRF. i tried to make a big stink ofver this, that it was clear thats way to often for a proc to be going off, but i got tottaly ignored by the devs, and all the cassuals in the thread freeked out and said im some anomoly and im not a normal player and not all normal players would exploit it like i do. i guess they dont fire all their weapons or use tac station powers or something.

the borg 2 part energy res thing is exactly the same, a 2.5 % chance of going off per shot, it would have the same rate of proc. the elatchi weapons are actually a per shot proc weapon too, and not a per cycle, but they have a built in limiter 10 seconds long. bottom line is CRF, and especially FAW, would directly contribute to proc chance of these things, because in the same space of time a dramatically larger number of shots are created, in FAW's case 10 per cycle.

i think their reasoning for giving FAW 10 shots per cycle was to try to get more shots on the actual target you want, and not just shot mostly aimlessly in all directions. this has the added benefit of scaling completely out of control when 3+ people are cycling it. this change was made to FAW like 3 or 4 fixes ago too, and long before any per shot procs existed. i highly doubt its intended to have this interation, or that they are even aware of it. they should proboly put in a 1 second limiter, so FAW cant give you 4 or 5 stacks wile its on.
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus

Last edited by dontdrunkimshoot; 11-11-2013 at 10:54 AM.
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# 22
11-11-2013, 10:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
Hrmm, it was just a case of testing it in a 1v1...5 FAW shots and 10 DEM hits (again, not equal damage)...

Let me go shoot at some Cardassians in Empire Defense. Gave me two JHAS at the start, but as you can see in the log - they were nice to separate them out for me.

307 - Cardom DEM Hit
306 - Cardom_2 DEM Hit
thats interesting that DEM hits first, but i suppose even beams have a travel time between target selection and impact, an incredibly short travel time of less then a milasecond, but its there. im not sure theres a DEM pulse just from selecting a target though, to me it looks like there is a dem entry for every beam fired, at least in the first 2 clumps.

a good way to test exactly would to have 1 beam equipped, not on auto fire, activate DEM and faw around those 2 ships, and let 1 cycle complete and not start again. that would show us at least that my 10 shot per cycle 'theory' isn't just a visual anomaly, and thats actually whats going on. it would be nice if theres a a corresponding number of DEM entries. that easily explains why per shot procs are going off and stacking several in less then a second.
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
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# 23
11-11-2013, 11:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
thats interesting that DEM hits first, but i suppose even beams have a travel time between target selection and impact, an incredibly short travel time of less then a milasecond, but its there. im not sure theres a DEM pulse just from selecting a target though, to me it looks like there is a dem entry for every beam fired, at least in the first 2 clumps.

a good way to test exactly would to have 1 beam equipped, not on auto fire, activate DEM and faw around those 2 ships, and let 1 cycle complete and not start again. that would show us at least that my 10 shot per cycle 'theory' isn't just a visual anomaly, and thats actually whats going on. it would be nice if theres a a corresponding number of DEM entries. that easily explains why per shot procs are going off and stacking several in less then a second.
That was just a single beam...I only fired for the duration of the FAW (10s)...so it would have been two cycles. I only truncated four more series (but the 2 DEM's first was already apparent like I said). It was a beam on autofire though.

Vs. a single target - there are 5 FAW hits and 10 DEM hits per beam per cycle.
Vs. two+ targets - there are 10 FAW hits and 20 DEM hits per beam per cycle.

With FAW, DEM hits on target selection as well as on actually hitting the target.

Wish there was a way to see if that's happening with other non-proc pulse doohickeys...
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin
Career Officer
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# 24
11-11-2013, 11:43 AM
The only reason we are seeing, now, DEM eating people alive is due to it constantly also firing at full or near-full power (and it also benefits from all of the passive damage boosts we've gotten like AMP & EPTW).


Which comes back to Overcapping & Drain resistance.


My opinion is that we do not require both of these mechanics on top of each other.


Drain Resistance is already on gear, it can't go anywhere - except perhaps get toned down on the items its on like the Omega Adapted (one of the largest contributors).

Over-capping on the other hand could be given a lower cap, something like 135 to maybe 150.

My problem with over-capping is that I still insist it is at best "half a mechanic".


It only works on beam weapons but...
DBBs have a lower cap than BAs and...
It doesn't work with all beam enhancing powers, only BFAW...


Result?


The narrower arc, higher damage beam weapon (DBB) is outclassed by the Beam Array that has a firing arc nearly 3x as large and can therefore leverage better synergy with BFAW & rear weapons (which are also BAs).


Fix the DEM issue, be my guest, I'm all for it.

We will still be stuck with the current meta-game however, until Over-capping & Drain resistance are reigned in.

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# 25
11-11-2013, 12:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
That was just a single beam...I only fired for the duration of the FAW (10s)...so it would have been two cycles. I only truncated four more series (but the 2 DEM's first was already apparent like I said). It was a beam on autofire though.

Vs. a single target - there are 5 FAW hits and 10 DEM hits per beam per cycle.
Vs. two+ targets - there are 10 FAW hits and 20 DEM hits per beam per cycle.

With FAW, DEM hits on target selection as well as on actually hitting the target.

Wish there was a way to see if that's happening with other non-proc pulse doohickeys...
im confused then, because in the logs you post every chunk has 4 DEM entries and 4 beam impact entries. every DEM is accounted for with its own beam impact. im not seeing double the number of DEM entries in that data

Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
The only reason we are seeing, now, DEM eating people alive is due to it constantly also firing at full or near-full power (and it also benefits from all of the passive damage boosts we've gotten like AMP & EPTW).


Which comes back to Overcapping & Drain resistance.


My opinion is that we do not require both of these mechanics on top of each other.


Drain Resistance is already on gear, it can't go anywhere - except perhaps get toned down on the items its on like the Omega Adapted (one of the largest contributors).

Over-capping on the other hand could be given a lower cap, something like 135 to maybe 150.

My problem with over-capping is that I still insist it is at best "half a mechanic".


It only works on beam weapons but...
DBBs have a lower cap than BAs and...
It doesn't work with all beam enhancing powers, only BFAW...


Result?


The narrower arc, higher damage beam weapon (DBB) is outclassed by the Beam Array that has a firing arc nearly 3x as large and can therefore leverage better synergy with BFAW & rear weapons (which are also BAs).


Fix the DEM issue, be my guest, I'm all for it.

We will still be stuck with the current meta-game however, until Over-capping & Drain resistance are reigned in.
i think crit levels have a fair amount to do with DEM's damage as well, DEM actually crits too. i know when im highly tac boosted, i'll see DEM crits of over 1000 direct to hull damage, and i think DEM crits every time every time the shot its tied to crits. would explain why scimitar DEM2 is more painful then DEM 3 on any fed or kdf ship.

i think all weapons, not just arrays should have an over cap of 150, effect cap of 125. and it should be shown in the UI and explained in loading screen tips. their really needs to be something limiting absolute top potential damage, because the maximums are out of hand. limiting to just 150 would at least require you to go out of your way to use drain reducers.
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# 26
11-11-2013, 12:32 PM
Maybe the ongoing drama of FAW issues is being looked at the wrong way...instead of fiddling with the stats (which hasn't worked-it's been nerfed, buffed, re-nerfed, re-buffed etc. etc. ad nauseum)

Maybe a different approach is in order for the whole thing-maybe add a "Friendly Fire" mechanic instead?

Say, a 2.5% proc on the ability where it shoots ANYTHING in range...even teammates and the owner's pets?

see, then it still works for the PvE guys who like to kirk it in STFs, and it still works if used CAREFULLY in PvP-but it becomes a liability to the guys who set up a macro and keybind and fly in a circle tapping spacebar while they're chatting on the phone with their girlfriend, watching teevee on the other screen, or changing the coversheet on their TPS Reports.

Oh, and set it up per shot, not per cycle, and ALL available buffs apply.

There. Done. no more 5 man FAWballs, because there's a downside...
"when you're out of Birds of Prey, you're out of ships."
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# 27
11-11-2013, 12:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
im confused then, because in the logs you post every chunk has 4 DEM entries and 4 beam impact entries. every DEM is accounted for with its own beam impact. im not seeing double the number of DEM entries in that data
Each separation had the following:

Target Selection DEM Hit (Target#1)
Target Selection DEM Hit (Target#2)
Shield Damage (Target#1)
Hull Damage/Bleed (Target#1)
DEM Hit (Target#1)
Shield Damage (Target#2)
Hull Damage/Bleed (Target#2)
DEM Hit (Target#2)

Or some variation of that...

The shield and hull/bleed is one hit - two damage entries, but one hit.

edit: Here's another breakdown of how it goes...

w/o FAW

vs. shielded target

Shield damage
Hull damage
DEM damage

vs. unshielded target

Hull damage
DEM damage

w/ FAW

vs. shielded target

DEM damage
Shield damage
Hull damage
DEM damage

vs. unshielded target

DEM damage
Hull damage
DEM damage

With FAW, it adds a targeting DEM hit from when FAW selects the target.

edit2: Again, note...they're not two equal DEM hits.
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin

Last edited by virusdancer; 11-11-2013 at 12:49 PM.
Cryptic Studios Team
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 485
# 28
11-11-2013, 04:37 PM
I wouldn't call using FAW an exploit by any means, but it IS currently bugged to cause some procs to go off twice. We will fix this - it's not intended - but because FAW is so complex, fixing it has been nontrivial due to a need to test all the moving parts involved. It will come, though.
Jeff "Adjudicator Hawk" Hamilton
Systems Designer - Cryptic Studios
Twitter: @JeffAHamilton
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Join Date: Apr 2013
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# 29
11-11-2013, 04:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adjudicatorhawk View Post
I wouldn't call using FAW an exploit by any means, but it IS currently bugged to cause some procs to go off twice. We will fix this - it's not intended - but because FAW is so complex, fixing it has been nontrivial due to a need to test all the moving parts involved. It will come, though.
I just hope thats actually soon, Hawk, because as it is right now, fedball fawboats are pretty much ending any sort of casual pvp experience, and the heavily geared (especially scimitars) ones are even putting some severe hurt on premade groups by exploiting the confirmed bugged mechanic.
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# 30
11-11-2013, 04:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adjudicatorhawk View Post
I wouldn't call using FAW an exploit by any means, but it IS currently bugged to cause some procs to go off twice. We will fix this - it's not intended - but because FAW is so complex, fixing it has been nontrivial due to a need to test all the moving parts involved. It will come, though.
Heh, can't speak for everybody or most anybody - but perhaps many-abody definitely understands and respects the complexity of FAW, having watched many changes over the years in trying to get it right.

And not to be a happy go lucky buttering up bait and switch guy...but...

http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/sh...d.php?t=883011

...which is probably 5 initial posts of TLDR by me, does bring up the issue of the difference in damage with FAW + Tetryon vs. FAW + other energy types. For some reason, FAW + Tetryon is doing less than the others.

No, not the face...heh...ahem, going to back away slowly now.
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin
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