Commander
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 335
# 11
11-23-2013, 05:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by misterde3 View Post
As someone who's flown BoPs for 45 months I'd like to know which part of +15 to weapons and no version with 4 science consoles sounds like "science".
Let's go over it again.

For starters KDF don't only have raiders as a science option.

Quote:
Originally Posted by varnoukh View Post
Besides the two sci carriers and other sci ships, there's the raiders.
I said explicitly and very clearly which part of raiders sounds like "science".

Quote:
Originally Posted by varnoukh View Post
But access to a sci officer at a com station (yeeha!) and the flexibility to do what you like with the others. That's sweet as.
And it is.

The oft-repeated mantra of the don't-make-any-more-science-ships-for-Romulans crowd is "Fly the T'varo. It's awesome." It is a nice ship but what it lacks is sci com station, so no level 3 version of the best sci boff abilities.

Universal boff stations are golden. They're one of the big benefits you normally only see on lockbox and vet ships.

Quote:
Originally Posted by misterde3 View Post
Have you actually tried it out?
I'd like to encourage you to do so...nonono seriously try it. Since the ship is so squishy you usually end up using the heals a science ship usually deals out to others on yourself.
Solo, yes. In STFs no.

Solo it's freaking awesome. I'm not really into Klingons, piracy, brutality, etc. So they're not for me. But the raiders are great. Fantastic.

Also look at them in comparison to the ONLY Romulan science ship. The ha'nom is ridiculously oversized and has a slow turn rate to match. Playing a raider after that was... well I almost needed to light up a cigarette.

If you say raiders are so squishy that you end up using the heals on yourself, I'd have to ask if you're playing them to their strengths? Yes they're squishier but they also have very fast turn rates so are extremely maneuvreable. If you're actually moving around you don't get hit so much.

You couldn't eg. play a raider like you would a carrier. Try that and yes, they'd seem pretty awful.

You realise the t5 retrofit has an advanced battle cloak? That means they can fire off heals, gravity wells, torpedos and mines while cloaked. So if what you're focusing on is healing others you can do so in almost absolute safety.

So taking into account the fact they have two sci carriers to fed's one and rom's none, plus their other proper science ships, plus raiders, KDF do extremely well in the science department.
Commander
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 335
# 12
11-23-2013, 05:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by deathsremnant View Post
Honestly whats so godawful about the Ha'nah guardian that makes Romulans science officers whine?
People post feedback in a forum that they'd like a particular change in the game - more science warbirds - and you cry "whining".

Pfft!

Quote:
Originally Posted by deathsremnant View Post
It has decent hull/shield mod, a ok turn rate, battle cloak, and a good boff layout...The only gripe I can think up is maybe cosmetics and variation?
I'd not completely agree on the turn rate. 10 (uncloaked) is approaching ok. I normally pack one or two turn rate consoles to make it ok. But at least that's do-able.

Cosmetics. Yes. It's not an attractive ship. Mine has no ha'nom parts. I replace it with haakona and ha'feh to make it look decent. But at least that's do-able.

You missed the big one, literally.

SIZE.

It's grossly oversized. Trying to play one in STFs is awkward. Back when I was flying one (I stopped as soon as I saved up enough ec for a lockbox sci ship) I always had to fly above everyone else otherwise I was a massive obstacle.

And that knocks out several pbaoe sci boff and singularity abilities.

I wouldn't go so far as to say the ha'nom is useless but on the whole I'm not a fan of it.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,052
# 13
11-23-2013, 06:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by varnoukh View Post
Let's go over it again.

For starters KDF don't only have raiders as a science option.
Never said that or did I?

Quote:
Originally Posted by varnoukh View Post
I said explicitly and very clearly which part of raiders sounds like "science".
How about the fact you linked into the context of the Klingons doing well in terms of science?
You said
"KDFs do extremely well in the science department.
Besides the two sci carriers and other sci ships, there's the raiders."

You did not change the context so unless I'm missing something here you put them into a connection with science or didn't you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by varnoukh View Post
Solo, yes. In STFs no.

Solo it's freaking awesome. I'm not really into Klingons, piracy, brutality, etc. So they're not for me. But the raiders are great. Fantastic.
Okay, first off there's no piracy involved.
I assume, and correct my if I'm wrong, you're referring to the DOFF missions and the Pi Canis Raids.
So the Klignons are at war with the Federation.
In war it is not unusual to stop freighters under enemy flag and search them for war materiel and contraband.

This is called "commerce raiding" and has been used in numerous wars.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commerce_raiding

So unless pretty much every nation on this planet that has ever been done like the British, the Americans or Germans in WW1&2 is run by pirates this is actually pretty legal and a accepted military strategy.

And as you probably noticed the Klingon mission is to STOP the freighters (both DOFF and non-DOFF) and search for contraband and war materiel otherwise used by the enemy.
That is once again in accordance with the prize rules:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prize_rules

and much better than what the US Navy and the German Kriegsmarine did in WW2: they didn't stop the ships in accordance with the rules but just sunk them.

The raids on colonies...read the mission text. These are illegal colonies in Klingon space so the alternative would be to send them an angry letter like Hans Blix in "Team America".
Something like "Dear Bolian settlers, we're angry you settled in our space.
And this letter, we sent to you, is lettting you know how angry we are with you."


Brutality, well I can certainly undestand that it's not everyone's cup of tea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by varnoukh View Post
Also look at them in comparison to the ONLY Romulan science ship. The ha'nom is ridiculously oversized and has a slow turn rate to match. Playing a raider after that was... well I almost needed to light up a cigarette.

If you say raiders are so squishy that you end up using the heals on yourself, I'd have to ask if you're playing them to their strengths? Yes they're squishier but they also have very fast turn rates so are extremely maneuvreable. If you're actually moving around you don't get hit so much.

You couldn't eg. play a raider like you would a carrier. Try that and yes, they'd seem pretty awful.

You realise the t5 retrofit has an advanced battle cloak? That means they can fire off heals, gravity wells, torpedos and mines while cloaked. So if what you're focusing on is healing others you can do so in almost absolute safety.

So taking into account the fact they have two sci carriers to fed's one and rom's none, plus their other proper science ships, plus raiders, KDF do extremely well in the science department.
Even when you're moving fast you have the following problems:
unless you're in regluar PvE, which you can easily solo with white MkVIII equipment, moving fast still means a certain amount of damage will get through. I've got a Fleet Norgh with a full KHG set and in an ESTF when you have some 8-10 spheres behind you, you WILL need those heals.

Additionally when you heal someone else with anything other than a TEAM ability you need to stay close for a while so you're fast but you're still in enemy range.
And in case of the EBC this means that for example you throw Hazard Emitters on an ally while cloaked, the enemy can see you, target you and you have no shields.
Contrary to belief the EBC has some serious drawbacks in that regard and is actually the opposite of safe.
Commander
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 335
# 14
11-23-2013, 04:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by misterde3 View Post
Never said that or did I?
Not half as confused as I am by that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by misterde3 View Post
How about the fact you linked into the context of the Klingons doing well in terms of science?
You said
"KDFs do extremely well in the science department.
Besides the two sci carriers and other sci ships, there's the raiders."

You did not change the context so unless I'm missing something here you put them into a connection with science or didn't you?
I have no idea what you're referring to with change of context but to clarify...

Raiders are not the only KDF sci option. There are two sci carriers plus several other science vessels. Ergo before even taking into account raiders KDF are much better off in the sci department than roms.

Granted, feds have more sci ships. But then.... there's raiders.

Ergo KDF do extremely well in the science department. Especially in the context of this discussion about a faction which only has 1 science ship.

Quote:
Originally Posted by misterde3 View Post
Okay, first off there's no piracy involved.
I assume, and correct my if I'm wrong, you're referring to the DOFF missions and the Pi Canis Raids.
First you say there isn't and then you acknowledge there is. I'm not sure how to respond.

Yes, I was referring in part to doff missions. The marauding ones in particular focus on raiding facilities and waylaying enemy ships and looting the bleep out of them.

That is piracy.

Plus, if you're so inclined, there's the orion pet ship which loots contraband and prisoners.

It's embarassingly loot-tastic. My KDF character is drowning in contraband, prisoners and commodities just from doing the basic low level marauder doff missions. But it's a bit distasteful.

Aunty Kathy would so not approve.

Quote:
Originally Posted by misterde3 View Post
Even when you're moving fast you have the following problems: unless you're in regluar PvE, which you can easily solo with white MkVIII equipment, moving fast still means a certain amount of damage will get through. I've got a Fleet Norgh with a full KHG set and in an ESTF when you have some 8-10 spheres behind you, you WILL need those heals.
I've yet to find this a problem. With even a semi-decent team I throw down a gravity well, fire off a sensor scan and torpedo spread / cluster, and my team-mates unleash their aoes too. Most opponents melt in a few seconds. Those who don't generally focus their attention on taccy team-mates who are dishing out more DPS than I am.

If you've got 8-10 spheres focusing solely on you, is it possible you or your team-mates doing something horribly wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by misterde3 View Post
Additionally when you heal someone else with anything other than a TEAM ability you need to stay close for a while so you're fast but you're still in enemy range.
Not true.

Most target-ally abilities have a 10k range. One of the shield heals is 7.5.

Your allies have a firing range of 10k. Ergo you could be (safely) up to 7.4k outside of enemy firing range and still heal team-mates.

Quote:
Originally Posted by misterde3 View Post
And in case of the EBC this means that for example you throw Hazard Emitters on an ally while cloaked, the enemy can see you, target you and you have no shields.
Contrary to belief the EBC has some serious drawbacks in that regard and is actually the opposite of safe.
One ability. There are other instant heal-other abilities.
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