Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 96
# 21
11-26-2013, 12:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by markhawkman View Post
the Navy has Cadets. But they get promoted to ensign when officially commissioned.

Actually, all of the branches of US military call officers in training cadets.
Naval officers-in-training, at least at Annapolis, are called midshipmen. It's functionally the same as cadet, just a branch-specific variation for the Navy.

Last edited by anodynes; 11-26-2013 at 12:50 PM. Reason: Quoted wrong post
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,105
# 22
11-26-2013, 01:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidwford View Post
You might want to go back and watch the special features and interviews from Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan.
Which movie Roddenberry specifically repudiated, so it says nothing about his intent.
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Ensign
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 10
# 23
11-26-2013, 01:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sonnikku View Post
And he stayed an Ensign for 7 YEARS. I made vice admiral in a week in contrast. What does an Asian have to do to get promoted around here?
Not only was he an ensign for 7 years, he did so watching Paris get reinstated to Lt. JG out of a penal colony, demoted to ensign for behavior that would have gotten them court martialled if they were still in the alpha quadrant, then get promoted back to Lt JG AGAIN.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 972
# 24
11-26-2013, 06:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonsills View Post
Which movie Roddenberry specifically repudiated, so it says nothing about his intent.
When? Where? Considering it is the best Star Trek Movie and has retained that title of the fan's favorite thought the years, and all of the emphasis placed on the uniforms from that movie (which WERE used in several TNG episodes), I think your complaints carry very little value.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sonnikku View Post
And he stayed an Ensign for 7 YEARS. I made vice admiral in a week in contrast. What does an Asian have to do to get promoted around here?
The problem is that the staff had this flawed belief that someone had to be the ensign that everyone else bossed around. Garrett Wang had often complained about how they stifled his character's development. And I agree with him. It would have been great storytelling to play of the tension of Paris having been superior in rank then being junior to him.

In real life, Lt JG Everett Alvarez was held in a North Vietnamese POW camp and was the second longest held POW in American history. It was quite an unusual situation when several officers with MUCH less time in service but senior in rank because they were promoted before their capture (but after his). By law and tradition, he had to report to them. Fortunately, after his release and repatriation, he was quickly promoted with the promotions back dated as a result of his honorable performance while in captivity.

I make the observation that when Voyager returned to Earth, by tradition, Harold Kim should have been promoted at least to full LT.(O-3) if not Lt. Commander. And his date of rank for Lt. J.G. and to Lt. should have been 2 and 4 years respectively from his graduation from Starfleet Academy. If they promoted him to Lt. Commander, then that effective date of promotion should have been no sooner than 2 years from the effective date of promotion to full Lt. (O-3). That Janeway did not exercise her authority as Captain to make him acting Lt. J.G. or Lt.(O-3) pending a review board, is bad leadership on her part. If nothing else, she should have put in his promotion recommendation when they made contact with Headquarters via the Hirogen relay.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,105
# 25
11-26-2013, 07:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidwford View Post
When? Where? Considering it is the best Star Trek Movie and has retained that title of the fan's favorite thought the years, and all of the emphasis placed on the uniforms from that movie (which WERE used in several TNG episodes), I think your complaints carry very little value.
Well there's the article here:
Quote:
After Roddenberry read the script for The Wrath of Khan, he was livid. He accused Bennett of militarizing Star Trek and glorifying violence. Bennett had to remind Roddenberry that Starfleet was clearly a military organization in the original episodes. Adamantly, Roddenberry also protested the death of Spock. It would kill Star Trek, he asserted.
...
...the Great Bird grew convinced that, with each new film, they were making Star Trek worse. Piece by piece, he felt, they stripped it for profit and mass consumption. According to long-time friend Richard Arnold, Roddenberry was "just fighting as hard as he could to preserve what was left."

In 1987, as Roddenberry began working on Star Trek: The Next Generation, he became determined to undo the "damage" that Harve Bennett had done. Consequently, TNG was Roddenberry's open rejection of the Star Trek films. It was not surprising that, in the process of jealously protecting TNG as his "sole" creation, he alienated many Trek insiders, such as D.C. Fontana and David Gerrold.
Apparently, Roddenberry's original story for the second Trek movie was one in which the Enterprise would have to go back in time to fix history after the Klingons used the Guardian of Forever to prevent the assassination of John F. Kennedy - in other words, a rehash of "The City on the Edge of Forever", as the Motionless Picture was a rehash of "Obsession" and "The Changeling".
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"You're as crazy as the people on Twitter!" - Samuel L. Jackson
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 957
# 26
11-26-2013, 09:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonsills View Post
Well there's the article here:
I guess it just goes to show that just because you made it doesn't make you always right when it comes to what to do with it...but then again the last decade of George Lucas should have convinced every nerd alive about that fact.

Make no mistake, I love Gene and what he created, but Gene isn't god. There's a lot in modern Trek (STO included) that doesn't fit with the "original vision", but things change as they grow. That's half the fun of being a longtime fan of anything, seeing how the thing you loved has matured. Of course it's entirely possible that you don't like the way things grow, or what they grow into but that's also part of life~
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,465
# 27
11-26-2013, 11:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by orangeitis View Post
I did? When?
Sorry mate, it was the first posting, not your opening. Sorry about that, I fused those two in my chatoic mind

Quote:
Originally Posted by unangbangkay View Post
I guess it just goes to show that just because you made it doesn't make you always right when it comes to what to do with it...but then again the last decade of George Lucas should have convinced every nerd alive about that fact.

Make no mistake, I love Gene and what he created, but Gene isn't god. There's a lot in modern Trek (STO included) that doesn't fit with the "original vision", but things change as they grow. That's half the fun of being a longtime fan of anything, seeing how the thing you loved has matured. Of course it's entirely possible that you don't like the way things grow, or what they grow into but that's also part of life~

Roddenberry was far from being a "saint", though I have to agree with him. Although I do like TOS, TNG and DS9 equal for different reasons and like the original movies, every isntallment of Star Trek did get worse, especially since Braga took over (who stated literally that he didn't want Voyager to have consistency because otherwise the audience would get confused when they miss an episode).

The militarism is an returning issue. But they never changed that Starfleet was not a military organization. Though that is not easily swallowed by most later fans since all they know and want to see are total war US Navy futures like almost every other sci-fi universe in existence does. You see that in every thread in this forum that insists that we all need new battlewarcarriers of doom with 14 tac consoles etc.
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Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 10,664
# 28
11-27-2013, 07:29 AM
Any power the size of the Federation must have a military. Otherwise you get stomped. Calling it a "civilian peacekeeping force" is really just changing the name, because it does the same thing.
HAIL HYDRA!

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Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 972
# 29
11-27-2013, 09:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonsills View Post
Well there's the article here:
You realize that is just a blog article with not references cited? If you don't cite your sources, it is crap. While you did cite yours, the source you cited from did not and so that source must be discounted altogether. Unless you can fine the original time and date of that interview where Gene Rodenberry disavowed the Movies, it is just hearsay and speculation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by markhawkman View Post
Any power the size of the Federation must have a military. Otherwise you get stomped. Calling it a "civilian peacekeeping force" is really just changing the name, because it does the same thing.
I agree. Sun Tzu has been quoted as saying, "A country without a military(sic [Army]) is ripe for conquest."
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,105
# 30
11-27-2013, 10:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidwford View Post
You realize that is just a blog article with not references cited?
Perhaps a more careful reading is in order:
Quote:
?Gene cast me immediately as an interloper,? Bennett reflected in Joel Engel?s unauthorized biography of Gene Roddenberry.
Quote:
I agree. Sun Tzu has been quoted as saying, "A country without a military(sic [Army]) is ripe for conquest."
You realize this is just an attribution with no references cited? Unless you can provide the portion of The Art of War that actually contains this statement, it must be discounted altogether.

(See, I can play that game too...)
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"You're as crazy as the people on Twitter!" - Samuel L. Jackson
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