Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 101
02-25-2010, 11:37 AM
Right on! Hehe, but it's not QUITE a necro--we've been discussing it pretty steady since beta!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 102
02-25-2010, 02:56 PM
Yet remarkably less complicated than what you propose. After all, isn't one of your guiding principals to reduce "hours and hours" of excessive development time? Or is that no longer a concern?

As for your lack of understanding, it's been stated by myself and others.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 103
02-25-2010, 03:14 PM
Oh, here's the topic I wanted to refer to elsewhere... *bookmarks*
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 104
02-25-2010, 04:38 PM
Malize:

It's no more complicated than yours. It's just a lot more interesting, and it allows the player AND the challenge to grow as levels increase. By just adding a wider variety of moves, and simplifying the UI to elements they already have (health bars and skill panels). And some convenient color coding.

See, it's okay for tricorders, door unlocks, find-the-frequency stuff to all be short, cute little minigames. But diplomacy? This is STAR TREK. A diplomacy system needs to have some real strategy, some real back-and-forth. It needs to have more meet than tic-tac-toe.

And it's an MMO, where players create their OWN characters, rather than living one of four pre-packaged stories a la Bioware single-player RPGs. So it needs to be free from the confines of dialogue and 'moral choice" systems.

This does that. You don't like it, and that's fine. As stated before, that opinion is noted. Consider it accounted for.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 105
02-25-2010, 04:48 PM
I like. This game does need more non-combat classes, Diplomat/Ambassedor and Merchant would be nice additions. Hope Cryptic realizes that not everyone needs to kill everything in sight to have fun.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 106
02-25-2010, 06:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by xMentalxLintx
Malize:

It's no more complicated than yours. It's just a lot more interesting, and it allows the player AND the challenge to grow as levels increase. By just adding a wider variety of moves, and simplifying the UI to elements they already have (health bars and skill panels). And some convenient color coding.

See, it's okay for tricorders, door unlocks, find-the-frequency stuff to all be short, cute little minigames. But diplomacy? This is STAR TREK. A diplomacy system needs to have some real strategy, some real back-and-forth. It needs to have more meet than tic-tac-toe.

And it's an MMO, where players create their OWN characters, rather than living one of four pre-packaged stories a la Bioware single-player RPGs. So it needs to be free from the confines of dialog and 'moral choice" systems.

This does that. You don't like it, and that's fine. As stated before, that opinion is noted. Consider it accounted for.
I still can not understand how a card with the word "logic" on it is supposed to mean something in a diplomatic conversation. You talk to a NPC, and start a diplomatic situation. Then these cards mean something to you how? I am to dual like Pokémon or something? I don't see how that is more interesting at all or how it represents a conversation.

But, I watched all 7 hours of the health care summit today. So I guess I am in a compromising state of mind. :p (As if that would ever happen in American government. It is my way or the highway compromising)

I can see a combination of the two ideas hear. It would mean a lot more work on the Dev's part. But, it would be a story driven and player driven feature for diplomacy. Why not have a quest to talk to a diplomat for some purpose. The quest gets the conversation started with a back ground and what you are arguing about. This is where the two can go together.

Once the encounter is started. You would both get a Persuasion health bar. Instead of a card with a word on it. You would have four different scripts with the diplomacy words in parenthesis after each line. So you can have a pre-written dialog to follow. (this is for players like me that can't have a card represent some kind of word fight in our head) This dialog would work the same as your card game. You use the scripts to fight, so you can follow the exchange better. It would be limited to 4 or 5 rounds to have a winner.

The winner would be the player that has the most Persuasion left in their bar. The battle would end in an immediate loss if a bar reaches zero at anytime. How skilled you are vs the NPC would make it more or less difficult to win. This would be skill based using the games skill tree.

As you suggest, there would be types of diplomats to chose from in the skill tree. You could tie it in to the rank system. Lt Co starts you with just a diplomat skill. Commander adds the types of diplomats, Logic, Intimidation and Persuasion. Captain would be The Pragmatist, Ambassador, Dominator, Stoic, Advocate and Empath.

This would give you the best of both worlds. It give a true story to follow, not just something you need to create in your head. It would also give you the same mechanics as the card game with the health bar and skill system. This would add depth to diplomacy and story to STO.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 107
02-26-2010, 04:11 AM
You all keep talking about "cards." I don't know where it's coming from.

But yes, abstract abilities fill in the gaps between the start of the problem and the resolution (whichever it is). All that's lost is the unimportant "filler" dialogue--"Nuh uh!" and "But yes!" type stuff. The story frames it, but the diplomacy system allows STRATEGY and true action-reaction to play a part in how you get from beginning to end.

Any inclusion of dialogue in the middle waters down the strategy, clogs up development, and ensures each mission can only be used in ONE place--which kills the possibility of missions in the Genesis content for diplomacy.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 108
02-26-2010, 08:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by xMentalxLintx
You all keep talking about "cards." I don't know where it's coming from.

But yes, abstract abilities fill in the gaps between the start of the problem and the resolution (whichever it is). All that's lost is the unimportant "filler" dialogue--"Nuh uh!" and "But yes!" type stuff. The story frames it, but the diplomacy system allows STRATEGY and true action-reaction to play a part in how you get from beginning to end.

Any inclusion of dialogue in the middle waters down the strategy, clogs up development, and ensures each mission can only be used in ONE place--which kills the possibility of missions in the Genesis content for diplomacy.
So you have a mission created by the Genesis system. You read a bit of story till you reach an impass. Then you have to argue till someone is the winner. The way you want this done is to play a game of tic-tac-toe to see who wins. That would be the same as using these words to fight a non-existant verbal battle.

I would never try that and it would not be diplomacy. I tried it in Vanguard. A game board would pop up. You would then choose cards, that I still don't understand what they are supposed to represent, to win somekind of non-verbal fight.

Why not have tic-tac-toe or chekers or any random game to represent the fight. It would be exactly the same thing. That is not diplomacy. There would be no strategy involved. It would just be learning a pattern of a single term vs another term to drain a health bar. Why bother, it would be completely a waist of time. It would not be diplomacy and never will be. Just like the diplomacy in Vanguard was a meaningless side game.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 109
02-26-2010, 08:50 AM
Really, take a course or read a book on symbolic logic. It's really very fascinating, and it demonstrates how the basic principles of argument can be WONDERFULLY displayed and fleshed out without using words at all. It is, in fact, how the vast majority of "Intro to Logic" courses are taught--because it's not about what pieces you have, it's about how you use them.

This system is modeled after those principles. It is much more interesting than tic-tac-toe, but much less complicated than chess. It is less confusing and bizarre than Vanguard's system, while still retaining the abstraction that frees it from shoving words down your character's throat and limiting you to only a couple stories.

MAJOR episodic content could still include dialogue along with this system. But it is WHOLLY unnecessary for the exploration or "filler" content that allows people to practice their skills. By removing the "in-between" dialogue, you avoid an exponential increase in development time, while at the same time vastly increasing the modularity of the system.

We don't demand that every space encounter have specifically-scripted dialogue back and forth, but we can safely assume that the captains are trading threats and insults as they did in the series. We reserve the specific dialogue for the MAJOR encounters.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 110
02-26-2010, 09:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by xMentalxLintx
Really, take a course or read a book on symbolic logic. It's really very fascinating, and it demonstrates how the basic principles of argument can be WONDERFULLY displayed and fleshed out without using words at all. It is, in fact, how the vast majority of "Intro to Logic" courses are taught--because it's not about what pieces you have, it's about how you use them.

This system is modeled after those principles. It is much more interesting than tic-tac-toe, but much less complicated than chess. It is less confusing and bizarre than Vanguard's system, while still retaining the abstraction that frees it from shoving words down your character's throat and limiting you to only a couple stories.

MAJOR episodic content could still include dialogue along with this system. But it is WHOLLY unnecessary for the exploration or "filler" content that allows people to practice their skills. By removing the "in-between" dialogue, you avoid an exponential increase in development time, while at the same time vastly increasing the modularity of the system.

We don't demand that every space encounter have specifically-scripted dialogue back and forth, but we can safely assume that the captains are trading threats and insults as they did in the series. We reserve the specific dialogue for the MAJOR encounters.
I took my last college class in 1994. I am a science/math guy. That's why my spelling sucks. :p

I understand that critical thinking is needed in college to expand the way people think and plan in their head before the words come flying out of their mouth. I really wish I could do that more in my profession. Things would go a bit smoother.

But for me, a video game is an escape. It is a place to have fun. Put the crittical thinkng aside and just have fun with others in a group, or chat or just solo the content and enjoy the story the dev's have written. I do want diomacy and non-combat in STO. It would add some depth that is so lacking right now. But to have to learn verbal warfare with 4 words will not fill the void for me. I want and expect more from a game.

I just don't know how many players would actually use the system you propose. It may end up like the aid mission in the clusters. I warp in, see the aid planet and just warp out to find another anomalie.
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