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# 11
11-29-2013, 09:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
Hrmm, that gets into perspective, eh? The assumption that Cloak is base...rather than something else. It's not base though...it's base to certain ships. Even with your suggestion of Cloak proliferation with the Feds, you're still limiting it - it's still not quite a base thing.
I get where you are going with that, but don't think that Feds should all have cloaks.

How I see it is how each designs their ships.

Starfleet builds a ship for whatever purpose they need, and for a limited number of warships, they include the ability to use a cloak..

Klingons build a ship, and then make sure to include a cloaking device in it's systems.

Romulans take their singularity core and cloaking tech, and build whatever ship they need around that.



I think keeping actual Federation ships limited in how many of them can cloak is much more fair. What if all Fed ships could cloak through the cloak console? I think that'd be a little OTT since the only non-cloaking ships at that point would be essentially '2nd' or '3rd' party vessels, like the Andorian ships, the D'kyr, Orion flight deck cruisers, most lockbox ships, etc.

Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,108
# 12
11-29-2013, 09:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mimey2 View Post
I get where you are going with that, but don't think that Feds should all have cloaks.

How I see it is how each designs their ships.

Starfleet builds a ship for whatever purpose they need, and for a limited number of warships, they include the ability to use a cloak..

Klingons build a ship, and then make sure to include a cloaking device in it's systems.

Romulans take their singularity core and cloaking tech, and build whatever ship they need around that.



I think keeping actual Federation ships limited in how many of them can cloak is much more fair. What if all Fed ships could cloak through the cloak console? I think that'd be a little OTT since the only non-cloaking ships at that point would be essentially '2nd' or '3rd' party vessels, like the Andorian ships, the D'kyr, Orion flight deck cruisers, most lockbox ships, etc.
It was more a case of being against the proliferation to "standard" Starfleet vessels. UFP member nations that might have it? Future ships? Fed? Yes. Not necessarily Starfleet though.
Vice Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
V.S.S. Oracle, D'Kyr-class Science Vessel
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# 13
11-29-2013, 11:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
It was more a case of being against the proliferation to "standard" Starfleet vessels. UFP member nations that might have it? Future ships? Fed? Yes. Not necessarily Starfleet though.
Fair point there Virus. But that's kinda getting into 'what-if' scenarios that we don't know about, and further away from the actual mechanics of cloak between the three factions.

I would love to see your math of stealth and stealth detection, Virus, in this thread. Just as a way of figuring out what might work well for all three factions in terms of how stealthy they should be.

Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,108
# 14
11-29-2013, 02:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mimey2 View Post
I would love to see your math of stealth and stealth detection, Virus, in this thread. Just as a way of figuring out what might work well for all three factions in terms of how stealthy they should be.
I've gone from 4 of 9 toons cloaking, from planning on 7 of 9 toons cloaking, to having 1 of 9 toons that cloaks. Willard still cloaks (heh, when does Willard decloak?) because the sole reason for him being rolled was to fly a Fleet T'varo.

Stealth Math is probably the easiest Math in the game.

1 Aux = 1 Stealth Value
1 Starship Stealth Skill* = 0.5 Stealth Value (does not scale with Aux)

Compare that to Stealth Detection/Perception Math...heh...

1 Aux =
Non-Sci Vessels: 0.4 Stealth Detection Rating
Sci Vessels: 1.2 Stealth Detection Rating
1 Starship Sensors Skill* =
Non-Sci Vessels: 0.00 to 0.54 Stealth Detection Rating, scales with Aux
Sci Vessels: 0.00 to 1.62 Stealth Detection Rating, scales with Aux

*Starship Sensors Skill provides boosts to a myriad of other items - not just Stealth Detection Rating. Starship Stealth Skill on the other hand only affects Stealth Value.

Then you get into the whole kit 'n caboodle on all the various SDR/Perception goodies out there...but this is about Stealth/Cloaks.

Hrmm, could look at some of my guys.

Holodeck Guys

Willard the Rat, Reman (Fleet T'varo)
Stealth Value (@125 Aux): +5184.4
Starship Stealth Skill: listed at 159 (+150 from Captain Infiltrator and +8.8 from KHG Mk XII Deflector)
Expected Stealth Value...
Base 4925
Aux +125 = 5050
Skill +79.4 = 5129.4
Difference = 55 unaccounted for

Geist, KDF Alien (Hegh'ta BoP)
Stealth Value (@125 Aux): +5133.8
Starship Stealth Skill: listed at 168 (+150 from Pirate BOFF and +17.5 from a Tach Deflector)
Expected Value...
Base 4925
Aux +125 = 5050
Skill +84 = +5134
Difference = -0.2, likely rounding at some point.

Tribble Guys

Piercing Blue, Romulan (Ar'kif Retro)
Stealth Value (@125 Aux): +5180
Starship Stealth Skill: listed at 150 (+150 from Subterfuge)
Expected Value...
Base 4925
Aux +125 = 5050
Skill +75 = 5125
Difference = Difference = 55 unaccounted for

Willard the Rat, Romalien (Ha'nom Guardian)
Stealth Value (@125 Aux): +5180
Starship Stealth Skill: listed at 150 (+150 from Subterfuge)
Expected Value...
Base 4925
Aux +125 = 5050
Skill +75 = 5125
Difference = 55 unaccounted for

Willard the Rat, Romalien (T4 Ki'tang BoP)
Stealth Value (@125 Aux): +5125
Starship Stealth Skill: listed at 150 (+150 from Subterfuge)
Expected Value...
Base 4925
Aux +125 = 5050
Skill +75 = 5125
Difference = 0

I have neither the Defiant-R nor Gal-X to look at a Fed Cloak, but from what I can see - it's the same base 4925 (4975 @ 50 Aux) as the KDF Cloak.

So Feds and KDF could sport the same amount of +Stealth (access to the +150 exists), the difference being that the Feds give up a console for it while the KDF give up ship stats for it.

Warbirds sport +55 Stealth compared to their Fed/KDF counterparts...and that gets into the Warbirds discussion in general.

edit: Should note, mind you, at 5 pips in Singularity Charge, Warbirds have -400 Stealth Value.
Vice Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
V.S.S. Oracle, D'Kyr-class Science Vessel

Last edited by virusdancer; 11-29-2013 at 02:59 PM.
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# 15
11-29-2013, 03:29 PM
Besides loving Klingon content in each series the one breaker in the beginning why I played KDF more than fed side is the reason how cloaks work for the fed side.

All the cloaks should be battle cloaks the changes I would recommend them doing is make it where birds of prey and such have the quickest recharge rate for their battle cloaks. Then base the fed ones and and non-romulan battle cruisers using their crew rating to be how fast their battle cloaks would recharge.
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# 16
11-30-2013, 12:40 AM
Something to consider, VD, about Romulans flying Warbirds is that they may have some kind of bonus in stealth by not having any points in their Singularity Core (since you aren't shooting or being shot at) when you look at them. Even if it isn't that, I have a feeling somehow it involves it, because those are the only ones who have a major difference of stealth compared to what they should have.

Zeux, I dunno if crew is a good choice. It's a rather borked mechanic atm, and wouldn't feel fair to all those big-crewed ships since you can lose crew so easily, and yet gain it back so slowly. Something like a Defiant or T'varo might not care that much about crew, but that D'deridex or Gal-X might.

Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 327
# 17
11-30-2013, 12:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zeuxidemus001 View Post
Besides loving Klingon content in each series the one breaker in the beginning why I played KDF more than fed side is the reason how cloaks work for the fed side.
That is a reason why federation should never get a battlecloak:it would make kdf closer to oblivion

On the other hand, and only for the sake of discution, OP proposition is not fair and it looks more than another thread "battlecloak for federation with any costs"
(OP propose that Avenger get a battlecloak while kdf battlecruiser keep their regular cloak
Fleet defiant gets battlecloak and a increase in shield mod while raptors doesnt even if now the fleet defiant is far better better than any kdf raptor )
( Btw having a cloak as a console it is an advantage to having all the stats nerfed so badly like kdf ships pay for having innate cloak.I would gladly pay with a console slot for having my fleet somraw raptor's stats increased to fleet defiants stats and as a bonus get a battlecloak )

Before speaking about a battlecloak for federation we should speak first about a kdf equivalent for a Kumari, for Fleet Defiant, for Vesta and for Avenger.


On the other hand ,romulan battlecloaks give equal opportunity to all playerbase to use a good battlecloak so I don't understand OP intentions to move the game away from IP (aka giving a battlecloak to federation).More giving battlecloak to fed and nerfing romulan battlecloak would mean to give another edge to federation faction this time against romulan playerbase.(Well we all bought a lot of romulan ships because they had a OP battlecloak so now it is time to get them nerfed no ??!!) and making the investition in romulans worthless.

If Cryptic would decide to nerf romulan faction for me it would be a clear message not to invest in any new future faction.Why play anything else than a Fed char if in the end everything evolves around Federation players ?
( My kdf char is almost useless because kdf escorts are a joke compared to federation ones more now that federation has plasmonic leach available and kdf got nothing worthy in exchange.)

Finally my opinion is that cloaks are just fine how they are now in game and they don't need to be changed.
Originally Posted by zipagat :
"There already is a Borg faction, its called the Federation. They assimilate everyone else's technology and remove any biological or technical distinctiveness and add it to their own."
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