Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 111
02-03-2010, 02:21 AM
Lets say we have 5vs5 without cloaks, what would happen ?

This would happen :

1. Fed team would go to ball , Klingon team would go to formation

2. Both teams would drive on normal speed towards each other and combat starts with focus targets.

NOW tell me, how the hell does that sound different to you when you have your fedball waiting for ambush and you have your 5 klingons who start it (feds get initial ALPHA dps, decloaker get focused automatically).

Arguments that you could say:

1. But the tank is the 1st one to Decloak !
1. Answer: So what? 5 player dps kills everything that gets no team support. (feds dont support each other EVER, not seen any of it in 100+ games, so its no suprise that you loose)

2. Klingons can choose the best target to dps!!!!
2. Answer: So what? We would dps the same target even if we would not have cloak.


Federation problem is that we have a primary player who decloacks, but even if Feds retarget to 2nd player, it does not matter, we use Speech software, we have brains, we adapt and we can heal ANY of our 5 players and every player has the same tanking abilities. Simple as that.

Federation gets 1st Alpha to the 1st decloak player, if you truly know how to play, that target would die below 10 seconds. But it seems to me that your Pugs are full of sunday drivers, and trust me i can see the stats when the game ends and i can see Fed players with 2-8000 dmg done. Thats so low i dont even wanna know what they do @ home while playing.

When you start seeing Fed players who actually heal over 50k in one game, add him to your Friend list, that player is gold. When you have 2 of those players in a team and every player does 30-150k dps (tactical pros do 125-150k dps) (support usually 30-50) (rest in between).

So this is the deal, and its a pure fact. (t2)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 112
02-03-2010, 02:21 AM
"So one side using an effective strategy makes it fine for the other side to say "ok, if you ever want this match to end, fly away and commit suicide, otherwise we'll never uncloak"? That is TOTALLY a reasonable stance to take."

Hate to say it, but the entire argument boils down to the above statement - and it is so messed up, that it can be applied almost equally to either side.

"So one side (fed) using an effective strategy (fedball) makes it fine for the other side (klingon) to say "ok, if you ever want this match to end, fly away and commit suicide, otherwise we'll never uncloak"?"

vs

"So one side (klingon) using an effective strategy (cloaked hit and run) makes it fine for the other side (fed) to say "ok, if you ever want this match to end, come at us one at a time and commit suicide, otherwise we'll never attack"?"
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 113
02-03-2010, 02:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RaccoonTOF
"So one side using an effective strategy makes it fine for the other side to say "ok, if you ever want this match to end, fly away and commit suicide, otherwise we'll never uncloak"? That is TOTALLY a reasonable stance to take."

Hate to say it, but the entire argument boils down to the above statement - and it is so messed up, that it can be applied almost equally to either side.

"So one side (fed) using an effective strategy (fedball) makes it fine for the other side (klingon) to say "ok, if you ever want this match to end, fly away and commit suicide, otherwise we'll never uncloak"?"

vs

"So one side (klingon) using an effective strategy (cloaked hit and run) makes it fine for the other side (fed) to say "ok, if you ever want this match to end, come at us one at a time and commit suicide, otherwise we'll never attack"?"
Those are both extremes. And the truth is that one side needs to make a mistake for the other to jump on it...

Both sides are capable of 'baiting' the other side.

Good fed teams do this with an escort that flys out from the ball and flees back to the ball with sci teams healing him to keep him alive...

Good klingon teams have the initial decloaker flee to encourage the ball to distend and deform so the focus fire is less intense... sometimes the bait even lives to tell the tale...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 114
02-03-2010, 02:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lugh View Post
Those are both extremes. And the truth is that one side needs to make a mistake for the other to jump on it...

Both sides are capable of 'baiting' the other side.

Good fed teams do this with an escort that flys out from the ball and flees back to the ball with sci teams healing him to keep him alive...

Good klingon teams have the initial decloaker flee to encourage the ball to distend and deform so the focus fire is less intense... sometimes the bait even lives to tell the tale...
Good Klingon teams tank can sit still and dps(twist left and right shield to spread incoming damage), while he gets healing from the healer, there is 0 need to flee.

flee = 1 dps less in fight.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 115
02-03-2010, 02:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloodlance View Post
Good Klingon teams tank can sit still and dps(twist left and right shield to spread incoming damage), while he gets healing from the healer, there is 0 need to flee.

flee = 1 dps less in fight.
Well yes there is that too...

But people are looking for options outside the tank and spank ball to ball fighting...



And not necessarily ...it means that the one that flees who lived ...can now swap in the rapid fire cannon ability at lower tiers and go from tank to dps mid fight too...

Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 116
02-03-2010, 02:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloodlance View Post
When you start seeing Fed players who actually heal over 50k in one game, add him to your Friend list, that player is gold. When you have 2 of those players in a team and every player does 30-150k dps (tactical pros do 125-150k dps) (support usually 30-50) (rest in between).

So this is the deal, and its a pure fact. (t2)
I think your knowledge is pretty limited by the tier you play in. 95% of FEDs have some sort of healing. I can easily dish 100K healing in my escort if i wanted.

IM just curious when the first "nerf mines" whines will appear. Because on T4 you can create a 16 mines with pattern beta III.

I can actualy hide myself in such dense minefield, you wouldnt even able to target me.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 117
02-03-2010, 02:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge_Bloodgood View Post
Glad to see he didn't care enough to come screaming into the post.

Again we need timers on these matches that award the win to the one with the most points or kills.
Really, please think about what you just said there Judge. A timer is entirely beneficial to the Fed side and will actually REDUCE the desire to attack for the Klingons. Cloaked, the Fed force will be assessed and if the composition is not favorable, the Klingons will remain cloaked till the timer runs out with 0 damage on either side so as to not loose points.

What a timer does is remove the cloak, something a large number of Fed PvPers are screaming for, from the Klingon inventory as it will force them to attack no matter the situation if the Klingons wish to advance in-game. The cloak allows us to dictate the initial stages of the battle, which is countered by the Feds stronger hulls and better shields/weapons layout (even you have to admit that the average BoP in an eggshell and yes I have been bounced around by you in PvP). Why is this so undesirable to us Klinks? PvP is the only way we have to advance our characters and improve our ships. We have NO PvE other than an endless grind in the Kahless Expanse (think exploration missions over and over and over). A timer will just tie our hands completely.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 118
02-03-2010, 02:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lugh View Post
Well yes there is that too...

But people are looking for options outside the tank and spank ball to ball fighting...



And not necessarily ...it means that the one that flees who lived ...can now swap in the rapid fire cannon ability at lower tiers and go from tank to dps mid fight too...

Our Premade (t2) will decloack and Fight until we die. (hardly ever anyone dies but it happens sometimes when we have used all our CDs. But even then its like almost over.

There is no need to flee as Klingon, as there is talents in game that can keep you fighting even if 5 players dps you with rapid fire on. There is options in game that enables a TEAM to keep 1 player alive, even when he is focused by 5 players.

Its the Feds who were over confident on the balling, and now when we are on live and ALL the PvPers are about in the same tier and levelling up, it just shows more now. in CB and OB Feds tried Klingon side to not get bored ("i want to test Klingon and not play Fed so i dont have to play the same content twice").

Also in this preorder launch thing, big companies have emailed the codes to new customers so the game actually have A LOT of Newbs playing in T1 and T2 atm. (majority Fed).

The higher the tier is atm, the more HC players there will be. BUT Federation Powerlevelling is not done via PvP its done via Fleet Action abuse, do mission +instance jump +redo etc. (it has a timer for a reason => Comparison => Kahless (klingon PvE) has same CD but no instance jumping (and we need to do it 3 times and Fed need to do that only 1 time ?lol?).

So basically when Feds level in PvE, Klingons level in PvP. You dont polish your PvP talents, or personal skill or team work, but we do, we polish and pimp everything. And even if we pug, we usually have every player who knows exactly what he needs to do and how.

IF there is a Klingon that makes errors or dont know something, we will educate him until he understands and knows. Federation side has so many players that you dont educate your players, you just nonteam ballup and think space bar spamming wins the day with 0.1 team work.. well HELLO it does not work like that. It did in OB when even Klingons had random noobs in T1 and T2, now even the HC players have to play T1 T2 again etc. and this is the outcome.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 119
02-03-2010, 02:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cocoa-jin View Post
There is nothing wrong wih the Fed ball...there is nothing wrong with cloaking tactics. Both tactics play to the strength of the ship types that employ them.

The only reason their are complaints is because they work well and make it difficult for some impatient, self-centered, spoiled gamer brat to get is easy kill/win.

That is it...give them a challenge and its a recipe for claiming the other players are the villians, the griefers, the exploiters, etc...all because that player cant get it all, right now, on his terms(which is usually fast, easy and on a silver platter).


Nothing more can be said, nothing...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 120
02-03-2010, 03:03 AM
Back in Beta when Fed players were getting picked off one by one by groups of cloaked Klingon players, some Fed players (foolishly) complained about cloak and PvP. Many Klingon players said "tough , we have cloak, adapt or die, l2p" etc. So the Fed players adapted, and found that the best defence against cloaked ganking was a tight formation. Suddenly, the forums were awash with Klingon players (the same ones from earlier) yelling how the "Fedball" was OP, PvP wasnt balanced, etc. Apparently they'd never heard of the word 'hipocrisy'.

Either we need a timer on matches to stop Klingons refusing to fight (hiding from view for 20 minutes is NOT the same as staying in a defensive formation in case youre attacked) or a timer on cloak to stop it being abused in this way. Players in PvP should be forced to fight. Federation ships sit there waiting to be attacked. Klingon cloaking FORCES this to be the case. So the responsibility to attack HAS to be on the Klingons, many of whom seem to think they're PvP gods anyway.
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